What would you do?

1785 Views 13 Replies 8 Participants Last post by deadeyedick, May 13, 2009

gators_2006

Discussion Starter · May 12, 2009

This is an article from the Gainesville Sun, about an incident that happened in my hometown.

Officers arrested a Keystone Heights man for stealing a pickup truck last week and dragging the vehicle's owner as the man tried to stop the theft.

The Clay County Sheriff's Office arrested Michael James Toth, 19, on a charge of carjacking, according to an arrest report.

The carjacking occurred on April 13 at a gas station on County Road 214, east of Keystone Heights.

Witnesses told officers that a man got into a pickup truck parked at the station, made three children in the vehicle get out and started driving away, the Sheriff's Office reported. One of the children went to tell the truck's owner, who was in the store. The man came out and grabbed a door handle on the truck. But the thief kept going, hitting another vehicle.

The truck's owner fell as the truck accelerated, deputies reported. He was later treated for a head injury.

One of the witnesses in the parking lot, whose vehicle was hit by the stolen truck, recognized the man who took the vehicle and told officers. The information helped lead officers to a suspect, and Toth was arrested Wednesday.

This had me thinking, if this was to happen to myself, would it be better to let the car go or take some sort of action. Because, my thinking is that, if I'm in the store, and the BG gets into my car and goes to leave, unless he tries to run me over, the carjacking has already occured prior to my return from the store and I would not be able to use force.
And then to totally wreck my train of thought, having three kids myself, all of which are still in carseats, I thought what would I have done if my car was taken w/ my kids still in it. I know what my answer would be(just hope the jury would see it the same way), but what would the legal course of action be.

Just wondering what everyone else thought.

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T.S.

· #2 · May 12, 2009

Can you post a link to this story please?

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Paladin

· #3 · May 12, 2009

Very similiar situation in this thread - http://floridaconcealedcarry.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=2944&highlight=orange

Lots of good discussion about is the car theft "in progress" or not.

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gators_2006

Discussion Starter · #4 · May 12, 2009

Hope this link works

http://www.gainesville.com/article/20090421/ARTICLES/904219976

And as for the Polk County shooting, I see the owner was cleared and all is well.

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Glock23-4-Me

· #5 · May 12, 2009 (Edited)

1st off, why did the man leave his kids in the car when he went in a store. Is this common among any of us? Maybe I am different in that, if I go in store, my kids go with me. (not being a smart *** just not sure if everyone does like me or if I am the odd ball in this situation)

*****listen, I am going to post something from florida statute, make your own decision on what you would do. DONT BASH ME ****

You stated:

if I'm in the store, and the BG gets into my car and goes to leave, unless he tries to run me over, the carjacking has already occured prior to my return from the store and I would not be able to use force.

812.133 CARJACKING.--

(1) "CARJACKING" means the taking of a motor vehicle which may be the subject of larceny from the person or custody of another, with intent to either permanently or temporarily deprive the person or the owner of the motor vehicle, when in the course of the taking there is the use of force, violence, assault, or putting in fear.

3)(a) An act shall be deemed "in the course of committing the CARJACKING" if it occurs in an attempt to commit CARJACKING or in flight after the attempt or commission.

(b) An act shall be deemed "in the course of the taking" if it occurs either prior to, contemporaneous with, or subsequent to the taking of the property and if it and the act of taking constitute a continuous series of acts or events.

***************************

Notice the "putting in fear" thing. That kind of wording comes up often when speaking about using deadly force.

One would have to draw their own conclusion as to if "they were" or they believe "their kids were" in fear.

I have highlighted the part that should answer your statement about using force when he was in the process of getting away.

**Kind of like smokey bear use to say "only you can prevent forest fires"
Now that you know what the statute says "only you can decide if you would use deadly force"

Lets see if I can make it out of this thread alive

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Mac45

· #6 · May 12, 2009

Take your kids And your keys.

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gators_2006

Discussion Starter · #7 · May 12, 2009

If alone, I always take the kids in with me. But if the wife is with, than she stays in the car with them. God love her, but I think that if someone was to try and take the car with her and the kids in it, she would pull the "whatever you want, just don't hurt the kids" mentality and not fight back and give into whatever the BG told her to do. If that ever came down to the case, I would never hesitate to use force. I've just always been under the impression that if someone took my ride while I was not in it and being alone, yeah, I might give chase if I was with in reach, but instead of slinging lead across a parking lot and having to lawyer up, I would just write off the ride and live to see another day a free man. Different story if I was in it and someone tried to take it. No hesitation there either.

I was just wanting to see what everyone else would do in this case.

Thanks Glock23-4-Me for the F.S.# You must either have all the F.S.#'s memorized, or have way to much time on your hands to look all of them up. Either way, looking at other posts, you seem to do a good job of informing all of us that are "ignorant of the law". Had an officer use that phrase on me one time, something about dirt roads and speed limits, blah blah blah.

I hate that this happened in our town, but dealing with a wife who doesn't really care about guns, I was able to use this as a pretty good example of why I own guns and choose to defend myself in such a way.

Thanks for the feedback.

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MPDC66

· #8 · May 12, 2009

In the scenario as described, IF the BG was already in motion when the owner jumped at the door and tried to stop him, I would have just let it go and called the police.

IMHO, the crime was over and this was an attempt at capture or regaining the property. I totally sympathize with the owner and his emotional response. A more rational response , IMHO, is , "that is what I have insurance for." If the BG was armed , he might have been seriously hurt and in front of his kids.

When I was a Policeman, my response would have been to try and effect the capture by any reasonable means BUT short of deadly force, by firearm anyway. In DC, pursuit can be really dangerous to innocent people but we usually pursued anyway. Now it might be against policy for a property crime.

Maybe IF this was considered a car-jacking and the kids were hurt.............

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Glock23-4-Me

· #9 · May 12, 2009

Thanks Glock23-4-Me for the F.S.# You must either have all the F.S.#'s memorized, or have way to much time on your hands to look all of them up. Either way, looking at other posts, you seem to do a good job of informing all of us that are "ignorant of the law". Had an officer use that phrase on me one time, something about dirt roads and speed limits, blah blah blah.

Your welcome man, thats what I am here for to provide info so that people can make informed decisions.

I've just always been under the impression that if someone took my ride while I was not in it and being alone, yeah, I might give chase if I was with in reach, but instead of slinging lead across a parking lot and having to lawyer up, I would just write off the ride and live to see another day a free man. Different story if I was in it and someone tried to take it. No hesitation there either.

Let me clarify, it is my humble opinion that you are correct in what you would do as stated above. If you are in the vehicle then "in my opinion" it is carjacking (if there is the use of force, violence, assault, or putting in fear) if you are not in your vehicle or maybe right next to it pumping gas or something then you IMHO it would not be carjacking. Per the definition again it states:

taking of a motor vehicle which may be the subject of larceny from the person or custody of another, with intent to either permanently or temporarily deprive the person or the owner of the motor vehicle.

I am certainly not a lawyer and maybe even a leo or ex leo from florida can further clarify but I would guess that if you were in the store paying for a purchase and someone steals your ride, then its just grand theft auto. I think you have to be "in control" of the vehilce before it is carjacking.

I can not stress enough that I am not 100% sure about if its carjacking or not if no one is in the vehicle. In fact, if I had to guess, I would say its not.

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Mac45

· #10 · May 12, 2009

Glock,

You are correct in your assumption that climbing into an unattended vehicle would not be carjacking, but grand theft auto. Carjacking is simply a specific form of robbery, a crime against a person.In the related case, a prosecutor might loosely charge a carjack because the children were ordered from the vehicle. More likely the charge was leveled because of the injuries sustained by the owner when he was trying to recover control of the fleeing vehicle. It is always very informative to know what the statutes say. Most of us have very little knowledge of what constitutes a particular crime.

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Glock23-4-Me

· #11 · May 12, 2009

thanks. I am not sure if you are leo, but thanks. I was using the same logic that you were in guessing why he was charged with carjacking.... The kid thing or when he came back to vehicle and tried to stop BG.

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T.S.

· #12 · May 12, 2009

Glock23-4-Me said:
gators_2006

Thanks Glock23-4-Me for the F.S.# You must either have all the F.S.#'s memorized, or have way to much time on your hands to look all of them up. Either way, looking at other posts, you seem to do a good job of informing all of us that are "ignorant of the law". Had an officer use that phrase on me one time, something about dirt roads and speed limits, blah blah blah.

Glock23-4-Me said:

Your welcome man, thats what I am here for to provide info so that people can make informed decisions.

Click to expand...

There ya go!!

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airhead

· #13 · May 13, 2009

I had an old mentor tell me:

If you are going to be stupid, you'd better be tough.

Leaving your keys in the car (implied but not stated in the story) is stupid.

Left the truck running with the kids in it to keep the air on while he went 'just' inside to pay?

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deadeyedick

· #14 · May 13, 2009

The stupidity of kids/keys left in the vehicle notwithstanding, yes, I would definitely draw my weapon and order the thief to stop. If he didn't, I'm not going to shoot at a fleeing vehicle and would let him go (but I'd make sure and get the license plate number :laughing). I can assure you, there isn't a deputy in Clay County who's going to arrest the victim simply for drawing his weapon in an attempt to get the BG to desist.

If my wife was in the vehicle, Mr. Carjacker's day is not going to improve because she carries too. :rolf

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