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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
The average reaction time for humans is 0.25 seconds to a visual stimulus, 0.17 for an audio stimulus, and 0.15 seconds for a touch stimulus.

Breaking down some of the vids in the editor [ open carried ], the buzzer sounds, and it takes me .04 seconds to curl the fingers and grasp the grip in one of the video's, that results in a first shot at .43 seconds.

In another using the editor [ open carried ], hands at side, buzzer to hand on gun was .52 seconds. If we take for granted the .17 reaction time from the buzzer [ audio stimulus ], that looks like .35 seconds to physically move the hand to the gun, the first shot touching off at .84 seconds at near eye level using QK pistol. That would suggest my physical speed to first shot was .32 seconds from the time my hand touched the gun.

In another, a demonstration of sweeping the gun off my body from hands at side/gun just inches from my chest, .14 seconds total to touch/sweep the gun off my body.

In another hands at side, gun held to my head, I've touched the gun and it's cleared my head in .25 seconds. This presents a potential problem as someone with superb reaction time might be able to get a shot off at the moment I deflect/touch the gun [ it's not happened in multiple attempts by multiple people, but it is still possible ].

So from hands at side, gun near chest level, I've got .11 seconds minimum before they can react. From hands at side, gun to head, it's a draw if the person has very quick reflexes AND IS EXPECTING ME TO MOVE ON THEM ]. A startle responses normal time will be about .1 seconds when they aren't expecting me to move, added to the .25 reaction time [ these are best case scenarios giving the BG the full benefit of the doubt where his speed is concerned [ worst case scenario ] it would appear one has at least .35 seconds before a gun could possibly discharge in a disarm attempt.

In another, from concealed at 12 feet, I'm at .94 seconds. Wait a minute, THAT WOULD MEAN EVEN WITH A SUB SECOND DRAW, BEATING A GUN ALREADY DRAWN ON YOU [ drawing against the drop ], YOU'RE TOO FAR BEHIND someone with average reaction times. Tell me again how one draws against the drop and expects to not be shot if the aggressors is willing to fire? Now, some know about the "draw against the drop" skill I was taught by a dep sheriff covering East LA for near 25 years. He first adlibbed the DATD when a gang banger shoved a shotgun in his face on the streets. Afterward, he perfected it further, tweaked it a little as it were. This involves both H2h and drawing and firing at the same time [ can you pat your stomach and rub your head at the same time? ]. Not one, then the other, but both hands working together in concert [ because obviously time is of the essence ].

Why do criminals put a gun in your face/chest/threaten you with one from touching distance? Why do criminals present blades within close range/just out of touching distance? They are using a tool to control you, so you don't fight back/resist while they relieve you of your possessions. They don't want to kill you as a rule. If they wanted to kill you they would just do it and you'd likely not even know there'd been a problem. I mention this because in New Orleans one year training in the long knives, several of us went into N O french quarter to witness a voodoo wedding presided over by the high priestess of the city named Miriam. One of those along was a Sgt. on the NOPD. He told us to watch ourselves, let no one with the inner circle, because the gang bangers in that area didn't rob people/tourists, they just walked up and shot or stabbed them to death then stole their belongings. These bangers weren't going to try to intimidate you and potentially deal with resistance of any kind.

So what does all the above tell me? Action beats reaction. One MUST know what they are capable of first, formulate a quick tactical plan and execute it as soon as possible. As defenders, we have the element of surprise on our side when confronted with a blade or gun used to control us if it's within touching distance. Most people will not go up against a gun or knife in close. And probably just as well they don't. It takes some commitment to put the time in, push your own limits until you know what they are, then have the mindset of "not today butthole" just prior to the life running out of them.

The editor is a great tool when accurately measuring one's times to move against another's time to react. I had no idea what the times may have been until I put the vids back in the editor and moved frame to frame with the time in .00 seconds being recorded.
 

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I've been spending a lot of time and effort improving my speed and accuracy from concealment recently. Lots of dry fire and self-evaluation daily, and about 2,500 rounds fired, mostly onesies at seven yards at the A-zone in the past two-plus months, including the Modern Samurai Project eighteen-hour class I attended.

Ingraining the several index points into reflex and muscle memory is critical for consistency and improvement. It's coming along satisfactorily and honestly, if I don't get any better than I am right now, I'll be satisfied with the return on effort.

It's all sighted fire, in that I'm using the red dot in conjunction with the threat-focused techniques that you advocate and teach. Slower than point-shooting methods we use at closer ranges, for sure. The dot will not be replacing half or 3/4 hip at those distances.
 

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My physique mandates that I carry centerline if I want to carry IWB, and I do want to carry IWB. I always have, seldom working from an open carry holster.

The first critical part of my draw involves clearing the cover garment BEFORE my firing hand reaches the gun. No great mystery there, for sure. That said, when someone really muffs a draw, it is most often because a shirt got between the draw hand and the grip of the gun. I practice clearing the cover garment countless times throughout the day. If I want fast every time, there is no room for muffs.
 

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The beep of a shot timer lasts for point three seconds. In order for me to be on pace for a sub-one-second shot, my firing hand thumb needs to be on the inner corner of the slide, fingers curled beneath the front strap of the gun as in the scoop draw.

As soon as the thumb and fingers arrive on station, the gun gets snatched upward to the point in front of the sternum where it will marry up with the support hand. Any firing hand grip issues are resolved on the trip up.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
The .25 response to stimuli is a given. The .10 startle delay makes it no less than .35 seconds to initiate a response. Most people are unlikely to know their par time responses. I threw this up here today in an attempt to educate as well as document ACTION BEATS REACTION.

He who hesitates may never get the chance to affect a response at some point in any given scenario. I know most aren't going to make the move to the gun, or have skills to deal with a presented blade or make the move to take out multiples as in the other thread and so won't do anything out of fear of starting something they can't likely finish without serious injury or possible death.

Does anyone actually know what they can do in .35 seconds when the threat [ knife/gun/hand ] is within touching distance? That's the time they have at a minimum to start to affect self rescue.

The time to respond isn't when all you have left is a Hail Mary response. Get in front of the curve, make them go defensive as soon as possible, your chances of surviving likely go up exponentially.

How well do you know what you're capable of?
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Apparently, the topic of action beats reaction and tactical decisions [ where SD is concerned against weapons ] isn't of much interest to the majority of members. :ROFLMAO:
 

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Apparently, the topic of action beats reaction and tactical decisions [ where SD is concerned against weapons ] isn't of much interest to the majority of members. :ROFLMAO:
Overload? :)

Knowing that none of us can meet your standards?

 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
Overload? :)

Knowing that none of us can meet your standards?

That was nothing more than a good example of H2h training. It helped the idiot wasn't aware the leo was that close to him. ;)

They aren't MY standards, standard reaction times have been measured in many studies. I've been able to find my own reaction times through the video editor of some of the vids I've posted. I had NO idea what my reaction times/hand speed was until I slowed the action down in .00's seconds.

There is an abundant amount of research over decades on reaction times based on visual as well as auditory stimulus/ques. My guess is people have never had their reaction times documented/tested, so they don't have the first clue how they may fair, where the time it takes to react is the subject.

Yet, we see through research, defenders can expect to have a lag time between .25 and .27 seconds or more once they move to intercede. In another study, the average reaction time has been between .340 and .40 seconds.

One doesn't have to slow down with age, to a point. Miculek is 68 now, but just 10 years ago at 58 he was breaking records for trigger speeds that the younger shooters couldn't duplicate. Why? Continued training of those twitch muscles.
 

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Apparently, the topic of action beats reaction and tactical decisions [ where SD is concerned against weapons ] isn't of much interest to the majority of members. :ROFLMAO:
Most people simply aren't interested in drilling that deep. I say that after years of including an action vs reaction exercise in classes I put on. Even though the results are for the most part conclusive, people seem generally unmoved by it.
 

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Overload? :)

Knowing that none of us can meet your standards?
I've trained under Brownie a couple times, and have maintained a friendship with him since then. We talk about shooting quite a bit. At no time, ever, has he done anything to indicate to me that I have failed to meet his standards. Quite the opposite, actually. He has always been pleased when I've taken the skills he's taught me and I've been able to expand on them.

edit: I forgot you have me blocked, but my message still applies to everyone else reading this post.
 

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Apparently, the topic of action beats reaction and tactical decisions [ where SD is concerned against weapons ] isn't of much interest to the majority of members. :ROFLMAO:
On the contrary, brownie, those of us who've trained under you, Bob, EBL, and similar totally understand your ACTION beats REACTION statement! Your thread came in at a time during the holiday weekend when, at least for me, I was dealing with a housefull of out of town guests and although I read your OP, didn't have a lot of time to consider a thoughtful response and still don't, so I didn't yesterday, but perhaps later today. :unsure:
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
On the contrary, brownie, those of us who've trained under you, Bob, EBL, and similar totally understand your ACTION beats REACTION statement! Your thread came in at a time during the holiday weekend when, at least for me, I was dealing with a housefull of out of town guests and although I read your OP, didn't have a lot of time to consider a thoughtful response and still don't, so I didn't yesterday, but perhaps later today. :unsure:
That makes sense, forgot it may be a guests weekend due to turkey day. I understand those who've trained with me know about the benefit of speed in reaction times, this and the other threads I recently started is more geared toward those people who've not experienced what many of those who've trained with others or myself and have no comprehension of time constraints on their and their opponents in the struggle to survive the concrete jungles of the US.(y)
 

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i may be the odd man out but i believe time is what you make it...how you approach it and what you are prepared to do or how far you are prepared to go to achieve a satisfying end...there is no guarantee that anything you do will work...regardles of the amount of time you have spent perfecting it...in most real instances you are up against a complete unknown with no set up time...their reaction...both expected and completely unexpected will determine your ultimate course of action and all of that has to happen in whatever time it takes to win...hopefully little...

speed is of course necessary...but adaptability and creativity are just as important...there are no rules or definites when tshtf...
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
i may be the odd man out but i believe time is what you make it...how you approach it and what you are prepared to do or how far you are prepared to go to achieve a satisfying end...there is no guarantee that anything you do will work...regardles of the amount of time you have spent perfecting it...in most real instances you are up against a complete unknown with no set up time...their reaction...both expected and completely unexpected will determine your ultimate course of action and all of that has to happen in whatever time it takes to win...hopefully little...

speed is of course necessary...but adaptability and creativity are just as important...there are no rules or definites when tshtf...
That would seem to suggest the more tricks you've put in your possibles bag that you can pull up and use as situations dictate, the better you're capable of adapting to the dynamics of any given scenario.

That makes sense to me. SD with a handgun is a thinking mans game.
 

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That would seem to suggest the more tricks you've put in your possibles bag that you can pull up and use as situations dictate, the better you're capable of adapting to the dynamics of any given scenario.

That makes sense to me. SD with a handgun is a thinking mans game.
and new tricks you may have to invent along the way...along with the will to carry them to finality...
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
and new tricks you may have to invent along the way...along with the will to carry them to finality...
On the fly mental acuity to solve a problem that arises AND hasn't been trained for is more prevalent in those who have a lot of skills in their possibles bag to begin with.
 

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On the fly mental acuity to solve a problem that arises AND hasn't been trained for is more prevalent in those who have a lot of skills in their possibles bag to begin with.
Better to have the possibilities figured out beforehand. Something about people defaulting to the lowest level of their training when scenarios arise.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Better to have the possibilities figured out beforehand. Something about people defaulting to the lowest level of their training when scenarios arise.
I'd guess the lowest level of training is actually practice on a static range. And at the practice is slow aimed fire trying to drill tiny little groups.

About 1% of gun owners ever seek training at some level.
 

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I'd guess the lowest level of training is actually practice on a static range. And at the practice is slow aimed fire trying to drill tiny little groups.

About 1% of gun owners ever seek training at some level.
That all gels nicely with what I've experienced. Even for those who do seek training, how many actually take the imparted skills home with them, improving on them to make them their own?

For several years, I attended classes at one particular shooting school. I soon noticed the some of the same people at all the classes. It turned out that there are people who attend training more as a recreational activity than a learning experience. They usually showed little if any improvement from class to class, yet there they were...
 

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The average reaction time for humans is 0.25 seconds to a visual stimulus, 0.17 for an audio stimulus, and 0.15 seconds for a touch stimulus.

Breaking down some of the vids in the editor [ open carried ], the buzzer sounds, and it takes me .04 seconds to curl the fingers and grasp the grip in one of the video's, that results in a first shot at .43 seconds.

In another using the editor [ open carried ], hands at side, buzzer to hand on gun was .52 seconds. If we take for granted the .17 reaction time from the buzzer [ audio stimulus ], that looks like .35 seconds to physically move the hand to the gun, the first shot touching off at .84 seconds at near eye level using QK pistol. That would suggest my physical speed to first shot was .32 seconds from the time my hand touched the gun.

In another, a demonstration of sweeping the gun off my body from hands at side/gun just inches from my chest, .14 seconds total to touch/sweep the gun off my body.

In another hands at side, gun held to my head, I've touched the gun and it's cleared my head in .25 seconds. This presents a potential problem as someone with superb reaction time might be able to get a shot off at the moment I deflect/touch the gun [ it's not happened in multiple attempts by multiple people, but it is still possible ].

So from hands at side, gun near chest level, I've got .11 seconds minimum before they can react. From hands at side, gun to head, it's a draw if the person has very quick reflexes AND IS EXPECTING ME TO MOVE ON THEM ]. A startle responses normal time will be about .1 seconds when they aren't expecting me to move, added to the .25 reaction time [ these are best case scenarios giving the BG the full benefit of the doubt where his speed is concerned [ worst case scenario ] it would appear one has at least .35 seconds before a gun could possibly discharge in a disarm attempt.

In another, from concealed at 12 feet, I'm at .94 seconds. Wait a minute, THAT WOULD MEAN EVEN WITH A SUB SECOND DRAW, BEATING A GUN ALREADY DRAWN ON YOU [ drawing against the drop ], YOU'RE TOO FAR BEHIND someone with average reaction times. Tell me again how one draws against the drop and expects to not be shot if the aggressors is willing to fire? Now, some know about the "draw against the drop" skill I was taught by a dep sheriff covering East LA for near 25 years. He first adlibbed the DATD when a gang banger shoved a shotgun in his face on the streets. Afterward, he perfected it further, tweaked it a little as it were. This involves both H2h and drawing and firing at the same time [ can you pat your stomach and rub your head at the same time? ]. Not one, then the other, but both hands working together in concert [ because obviously time is of the essence ].

Why do criminals put a gun in your face/chest/threaten you with one from touching distance? Why do criminals present blades within close range/just out of touching distance? They are using a tool to control you, so you don't fight back/resist while they relieve you of your possessions. They don't want to kill you as a rule. If they wanted to kill you they would just do it and you'd likely not even know there'd been a problem. I mention this because in New Orleans one year training in the long knives, several of us went into N O french quarter to witness a voodoo wedding presided over by the high priestess of the city named Miriam. One of those along was a Sgt. on the NOPD. He told us to watch ourselves, let no one with the inner circle, because the gang bangers in that area didn't rob people/tourists, they just walked up and shot or stabbed them to death then stole their belongings. These bangers weren't going to try to intimidate you and potentially deal with resistance of any kind.

So what does all the above tell me? Action beats reaction. One MUST know what they are capable of first, formulate a quick tactical plan and execute it as soon as possible. As defenders, we have the element of surprise on our side when confronted with a blade or gun used to control us if it's within touching distance. Most people will not go up against a gun or knife in close. And probably just as well they don't. It takes some commitment to put the time in, push your own limits until you know what they are, then have the mindset of "not today butthole" just prior to the life running out of them.

The editor is a great tool when accurately measuring one's times to move against another's time to react. I had no idea what the times may have been until I put the vids back in the editor and moved frame to frame with the time in .00 seconds being recorded.
I hope you keep posting things like this as it it very much appreciated. I have read this several times as I try to time my reaction times. Mine are bad is all I will say. Working on dry fire drills now. Thanks so much.
 
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