[Orange Boy]

This happened at one of my relatives condo here in Florida around 1993. I don't think the manager got in any legal hot water over it, but I have always wondered about the specific actions he took and if they were legal or if he was just lucky not to get in any trouble. The condo at the time was not gated, so they would occasionally get cars stolen and there seemed to be a run on break ins at the time. Many residents were snowbirds that lived alone and would leave the condos empty from April to September. This one condo unit (as well as the lady that owned it) was well known to the manager. At that time the condo should have been unoccupied. The manager noticed that over a period of a couple of days that the lights were going on and off at night, so it was obviously occupied. He kept an eye on the place and on the third day he saw a young scruffy looking fellow exit the front door into the common outdoor hallway area. He immediately approached the man and questioned him to ascertain if he had any legal right to be there. When the fellow couldn't even give him the name or description of the lady that owned the unit...he realized he probably had a squatter. He said that he would be calling the police and to explain it to them. The fellow became annoyed and said that he wasn't waiting around for any of that. At that point the manager pulled a legally carried firearm and the squatter said "don't shoot me". The manager said "sit down against the door and wait for the police" The police came and arrested the squatter and that's the last they ever saw of him. The owner of the unit was contacted and confirmed that the person was there illegally. I never heard of the manager getting into any trouble over this. Believe me, if the manager got arrested everyone and their brother would have known about it in this small community. Was the manager justified in detaining the alleged squatter in a common area at gunpoint?

 

[Buckley]

I could see him getting arrested. There was no forcible felony taking place that he was preventing, nor was he using his gun to protect himself or another from threat. I think he was fortunate.

Then again, 1993? I wasn’t practicing yet so maybe the law has changed since.

 

[jfl]

The reality does not always go by the (law) books; if the cops didn't "report" they saw a gun, there is no case.
LEOs can make a big difference, especially when you help them ...

"Was this legal to detain?" If we only did legal things the world would be very different ... not sure I would like it :laughing

Sometimes you have to do what you have to do, and sometimes it gets you in hot water !

 

[Rvrctyrngr]

I could see him getting arrested. There was no forcible felony taking place that he was preventing, nor was he using his gun to protect himself or another from threat. I think he was fortunate.

Then again, 1993? I wasn’t practicing yet so maybe the law has changed since.

No, I think you're spot on, PB. Simple misdemeanor trespassing, MAYBE B/E (if he was being an ass about it, the cops could make the call as burglary, but it would be a stretch, IMO).

Can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing, but that doesn't make it legal.

 

[Scouse]

It was a while ago, but despite the time gap, as such quite a legitimate discussion, it did happen, and there is a question on the legitimacy of the managers actions.

1/ Lights had been seen, in the premises at night.

2/ The manager knew he was in the home illegally. A crime had been committed.

3/ But had he the right to arrest? Because an arrest it was, the young man was not free to leave, he was arrested, now, at this time 2009, it might have gone differently, but maybe not? The Police are individuals, and could, and probably did at the time, see it this way "We continued the detention started by the manager, your Honor" "And on examination of the Condo, found evidence of forced entry, our initial inquiries to Mr. Smith gave enough evidence of an illegal break in, we arrested Mr. Smith for forced entry."

So in essence how the individual was detained never came up.

Interesting point of law though.

 

[FLRon]

Q. When can I use my handgun to protect myself?
A. Florida law justifies use of deadly force when you are:

• Trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm;
• Trying to prevent a forcible felony, such as rape, robbery, burglary or kidnapping.

The Manager had reason to believe that a crime might be taking place, in particular, burglary, as mentioned above. IMHO, he had justifiable right to draw and detain, even if it might not have been particularly safe or prudent on his part.

As Gutmacher writes in his book (Chapter 11, p.186) ... "As soon as the weapon is displayed, or you threaten to draw it, whether justified or not -- you have probably escalated the situation. There is no real way of turning back once it comes out. The situation tends to intensify, rather than get better -- unless the guy runs, backs down, or surrenders."

As an officer in my condo association, I have had several occasions to make entry into units. If I had reason to believe a crime was in progress, or had taken place, I would protect myself and others with me, and try to be a good witness. I guess I will have to make that decision to draw and/or detain based on the situation, if and when it ever happens.

 

[goldsamurai26]

While it is a gray area at best, leaning more towards illegal, as a deputy I overlooked a lot of things that were done wrong, but for the right reason, and in this case you didn't seem to have a complainant about the unlawful detention. Plus guns were a lot more common sight then and it wasn't a big deal to see one.

 

[kenny senter]

would that have been considered a citizens arrest? I wont get into it here, I know us carrying concealed does not make us a "peoples police" or a "good samaritan police", but I am going to make another thread about that.

 

[bigdog21]

While it is a gray area at best, leaning more towards illegal, as a deputy I overlooked a lot of things that were done wrong, but for the right reason, and in this case you didn't seem to have a complainant about the unlawful detention. Plus guns were a lot more common sight then and it wasn't a big deal to see one.

What unlawful detention ? Under common law a private citizen can arrest someone for a felony or breach of peace committed in his or her presence in Florida . There is plenty of case law to support it even in US court of appeals.

 

[goldsamurai26]

What unlawful detention ? Under common law a private citizen can arrest someone for a felony or breach of peace committed in his or her presence in Florida . There is plenty of case law to support it even in US court of appeals.

What felony ? You didn't witness him breaking in, that would be different. Just because he doesn't want to explain his situation to you doesn't make him guilty. Maybe he's in a hurry. Maybe he doesn't like people butting into his business. Just because you are the landlord doesn't make you king. You might find you were right in the long run, which was the case, MIGHT. If you were wrong and the guy was really mad you would be going to jail or in a case with someone trained and armed, maybe dead. Simple as that. I said I probably would have intervened but I don't always do things text book, I let feelings and what I think is right intervene. But that's just me and I sleep well at night. I have even been arrested for doing what I thought was right. It happens. It turned out in my favor and I WAS right, but I still took the ride, just as I have given the ride hundreds of times. But this is me and my opinion. I'm always open to new views as well though.

 

[goldsamurai26]

What unlawful detention ? Under common law a private citizen can arrest someone for a felony or breach of peace committed in his or her presence in Florida . There is plenty of case law to support it even in US court of appeals.

On this one I'm kinda curious about your meaning. Even Law Enforcement are very reserved about making an arrest for Disorderly Conduct. Much better to try and resolve the situation or separate parties. As soon as you detain a person past a reasonable amount of time or keep them in place against their will by force (ie gun) you have arrested them. Arguing with a buddy in the front lawn can be construed as Disorderly Conduct (breach of peace). Are you saying that if me and my buddy are arguing in my front lawn, you as Joe Shmo citizen can walk over, pull your smoke wagon, arrest me, and US court of appeals is going to back you up ? If that's the case then Florida has changed an awefull lot in the couple years I have been over here, but I don't see it that way.

 

[bigdog21]

On this one I'm kinda curious about your meaning. Even Law Enforcement are very reserved about making an arrest for Disorderly Conduct. Much better to try and resolve the situation or separate parties. As soon as you detain a person past a reasonable amount of time or keep them in place against their will by force (ie gun) you have arrested them. Arguing with a buddy in the front lawn can be construed as Disorderly Conduct (breach of peace). Are you saying that if me and my buddy are arguing in my front lawn, you as Joe Shmo citizen can walk over, pull your smoke wagon, arrest me, and US court of appeals is going to back you up ? If that's the case then Florida has changed an awefull lot in the couple years I have been over here, but I don't see it that way.

As discussed in the Case law the Breach of peace must involve an element of violence. Battery, aggravated assault etc would be considered a breach of peace that a private citizen could arrest for.
A citizen can use force to effect the arrest But it has to be reasonable.Pulling a gun in most situations would be excessive force.

Florida courts have narrowly interpreted the meaning of this statute, State v. Saunders, 339 So.2d 641, 643 (Fla.1976) (rejecting an expansive interpretation of Section 877.03) (citations omitted), and have required a showing that a breach of the peace presents an imminent threat to the public security or morals to justify a citizen taking immediate action. State v. Furr, 723 So.2d 842, 844 (Fla.Dist.Ct.App.1999) (finding drunk driving amounts to a breach of the peace because of the immediate threat to life involved in driving while intoxicated) (citing Edwards v. State, 462 So.2d 581 (Fla.Dist.Ct.App.1985)). Moreover, Florida law requires that in order to effectuate a citizen's arrest, the breach must "be committed in the presence of the private citizen." Steiner v. State, 690 So.2d 706, 708 (Fla.Dist.Ct.App.1997). Indeed, pursuant to Florida law, not even a police officer can effectuate a warrantless arrest for a misdemeanor, if the misdemeanor was not committed in his presence. Fla. Stat. § 901.15(1); B.D.K. v. State, 743 So.2d 1155, 1157 (Fla.Dist.Ct.App.1999) (citing Smiley v. State, 354 So.2d 922 (Fla. Dist.Ct.App.1978)); see Nickell v. State, 722 So.2d 924, 925 (Fla.Dist.Ct.App.1998); Donner v. Hetherington, 399 So.2d 1011, 1012 (Fla.Dist.Ct.App.1981).3

 

[bigdog21]

What felony ? You didn't witness him breaking in, that would be different. Just because he doesn't want to explain his situation to you doesn't make him guilty. Maybe he's in a hurry. Maybe he doesn't like people butting into his business. Just because you are the landlord doesn't make you king. You might find you were right in the long run, which was the case, MIGHT. If you were wrong and the guy was really mad you would be going to jail or in a case with someone trained and armed, maybe dead. Simple as that. I said I probably would have intervened but I don't always do things text book, I let feelings and what I think is right intervene. But that's just me and I sleep well at night. I have even been arrested for doing what I thought was right. It happens. It turned out in my favor and I WAS right, but I still took the ride, just as I have given the ride hundreds of times. But this is me and my opinion. I'm always open to new views as well though.

I misread it I though the manager KNEW that there Wasnt anyone allowed to be in there . I must have looked over where It said "should" have been unoccupied . Your right it could have been a friend or relative to the lady with permission to be there.

 

[goldsamurai26]

I misread it I though the manager KNEW that there Wasnt anyone allowed to be in there . I must have looked over where It said "should" have been unoccupied . Your right it could have been a friend or relative to the lady with permission to be there.

And like I said, I too would have intervened, but I don't think it completely legal. And I didn't see the element of violence involved (enough to invoke a citizen's arrest) with seeing someone coming out of an apartment that 'should' be unoccupied. And holding them at gun point too would be dangerous at best. No justification, in my opinion.

 

[goldsamurai26]

As discussed in the Case law the Breach of peace must involve an element of violence. Battery, aggravated assault etc would be considered a breach of peace that a private citizen could arrest for.
A citizen can use force to effect the arrest But it has to be reasonable.Pulling a gun in most situations would be excessive force.

Florida courts have narrowly interpreted the meaning of this statute, State v. Saunders, 339 So.2d 641, 643 (Fla.1976) (rejecting an expansive interpretation of Section 877.03) (citations omitted), and have required a showing that a breach of the peace presents an imminent threat to the public security or morals to justify a citizen taking immediate action. State v. Furr, 723 So.2d 842, 844 (Fla.Dist.Ct.App.1999) (finding drunk driving amounts to a breach of the peace because of the immediate threat to life involved in driving while intoxicated) (citing Edwards v. State, 462 So.2d 581 (Fla.Dist.Ct.App.1985)). Moreover, Florida law requires that in order to effectuate a citizen's arrest, the breach must "be committed in the presence of the private citizen." Steiner v. State, 690 So.2d 706, 708 (Fla.Dist.Ct.App.1997). Indeed, pursuant to Florida law, not even a police officer can effectuate a warrantless arrest for a misdemeanor, if the misdemeanor was not committed in his presence. Fla. Stat. § 901.15(1); B.D.K. v. State, 743 So.2d 1155, 1157 (Fla.Dist.Ct.App.1999) (citing Smiley v. State, 354 So.2d 922 (Fla. Dist.Ct.App.1978)); see Nickell v. State, 722 So.2d 924, 925 (Fla.Dist.Ct.App.1998); Donner v. Hetherington, 399 So.2d 1011, 1012 (Fla.Dist.Ct.App.1981).3

I just don't see how you would be justified in a citizen's arrest. You even quote it for your self and have required a showing that a breach of the peace presents an imminent threat to the public security or morals to justify a citizen taking immediate action. Very bad area.

 

[bigdog21]

I just don't see how you would be justified in a citizen's arrest. You even quote it for your self and have required a showing that a breach of the peace presents an imminent threat to the public security or morals to justify a citizen taking immediate action. Very bad area.

And like I said, I too would have intervened, but I don't think it completely legal. And I didn't see the element of violence involved (enough to invoke a citizen's arrest) with seeing someone coming out of an apartment that 'should' be unoccupied. And holding them at gun point too would be dangerous at best. No justification, in my opinion.

Like I said Ive been making citizens arrest fr the last 5 yrs as a security officer and the State attorney always accepted the arrests . Ive done extensive research on the topic of citizens arrest authority in florida. Not only in the florida courts but at the federal level as well.

To arrest for a breach of peace there must be an element of violence.

To arrest for a felony , it can be any felony no element of violence needed.

OK example : you see someone trying to steal your car which is grand theft ,a felony, You could arrest that person and hold them for the police.

Another example : Someone punches you int the face , thats a breach of peace with an element of violence , you can arrest them.
But if you catch a trespasser on your property you cant arrest because although it is a misdemeanor in your presence it does not involve violence.

If you would like I can link the Orange county sheriffs office document that talks about the authority of a security officer in fl that includes a reference to citizens arrests just as I have stated regarding when a citizen can arrest.

 

[goldsamurai26]

Like I said Ive been making citizens arrest fr the last 5 yrs as a security officer and the State attorney always accepted the arrests . Ive done extensive research on the topic of citizens arrest authority in florida. Not only in the florida courts but at the federal level as well.

To arrest for a breach of peace there must be an element of violence.

To arrest for a felony , it can be any felony no element of violence needed.

OK example : you see someone trying to steal your car which is grand theft ,a felony, You could arrest that person and hold them for the police.

Another example : Someone punches you int the face , thats a breach of peace with an element of violence , you can arrest them.
But if you catch a trespasser on your property you cant arrest because although it is a misdemeanor in your presence it does not involve violence.

If you would like I can link the Orange county sheriffs office document that talks about the authority of a security officer in fl that includes a reference to citizens arrests just as I have stated regarding when a citizen can arrest.

No, I don't need links to that, what I don't see is where you think it would be legal to invoke a citizen's arrest on someone coming out of an apartment just because you don't think they are supposed to be there. I know how it is done, when it's a Felony or when there is violence involved, I'm not asking how many you have done or when or where, I'm asking HOW you think it's legal to citizen arrest someone coming out of an apartment, by gun point none the less, just because you don't think anyone is supposed to be there. That is what the thread is about. I said I would have intervened, but said it was gray at best, more towards illegal to detain them, and you said it's legal. Although a burglary has been committed, you don't know that. You have a reasonable suspicion, but not even probable cause, and that doesn't give someone the authority. You don't have ANY legal authority under those circumstances to arrest them. Once you have arrested them you can't just figure it out, un arrest them, say you're sorry and go on home. If you have held them against their will for even 1/2 a second on suspicion alone, you are guilty of a felony (false imprisonment). Let alone pulling the gun. No felony has been committed in your presence and you are not stopping ANY violent misdemeanor.

 

[Scouse]

Bigdog21

Another example : Someone punches you int the face , thats a breach of peace with an element of violence , you can arrest them.

Off topic, but I thought funny.

A few years ago when taking my Security Lic; course (D lic) the Instructor was picking on the class members (what if questions) the hypothetical I got tossed at me went like this.

You are tasked with stopping patrons bothering the star of a live show. Standing outside the stars dressing room door, turning away a well dressed, somewhat inebriated flower carrier (this was to illustrate the take report and inform authority restrictive part of the D Lic)

"When you try to stop this person, he punches you in the face!"

I stopped the Instructor and said he "Would not" "No he did" I was told.

My reply, "I spent 5 years as a Bouncer in Liverpool UK, he would not have landed a punch!"

The Security Officer in Florida has not to many powers, old out of date Laws.

But taking a punch has never been on my list of fun things to do.

Back on topic, drawing your G licensed Glock 19 in the incident of trespass? as described, now, in 2009? most likely gone bye-bye G lic!


Keep Safe.

 

[goldsamurai26]

Bigdog21



Off topic, but I thought funny.

A few years ago when taking my Security Lic; course (D lic) the Instructor was picking on the class members (what if questions) the hypothetical I got tossed at me went like this.

You are tasked with stopping patrons bothering the star of a live show. Standing outside the stars dressing room door, turning away a well dressed, somewhat inebriated flower carrier (this was to illustrate the take report and inform authority restrictive part of the D Lic)

"When you try to stop this person, he punches you in the face!"

I stopped the Instructor and said he "Would not" "No he did" I was told.

My reply, "I spent 5 years as a Bouncer in Liverpool UK, he would not have landed a punch!"

The Security Officer in Florida has not to many powers, old out of date Laws.

But taking a punch has never been on my list of fun things to do.

Back on topic, drawing your G licensed Glock 19 in the incident of trespass? as described, now, in 2009? most likely gone bye-bye G lic!


Keep Safe.

I agree loosing your license at minimum, but you STILL don't know at this point it's Trespass ! Without a custodian or owner to verify, it is NOT trespass. Especially with no signs of forced entry. Plus with the incident noted earlier about trespass on one's property it cannot be assumed by law that individuals do not want people on their property without warning. There fore someone walking on your property is not guilty of trespass until you have them trespass warned OR it's clearly posted by legal signs at legal increments. So don't try a citizen's arrest on someone who walked on your property. Even LEO's don't do it.

 

[Scouse]

I agree loosing your license at minimum, but you STILL don't know at this point it's Trespass ! Without a custodian or owner to verify, it is NOT trespass. Especially with no signs of forced entry. Plus with the incident noted earlier about trespass on one's property it cannot be assumed by law that individuals do not want people on their property without warning. There fore someone walking on your property is not guilty of trespass until you have them trespass warned OR it's clearly posted by legal signs at legal increments. So don't try a citizen's arrest on someone who walked on your property. Even LEO's don't do it.

goldsamurai26

We have something you would like just now! Lots of rain! Green every where!

Reference my Glock 19 being deployed! To protect life only! and then no hesitation. The response time from OCSO, for a real threat, my last 911... 3 minutes!

Private Security practiced properly, hi visibility, get to know your home owners, and watch your younger residents. It is real fun, but like any job, if you hate it? Quit.

Watch your 6.