[Glock23-4-Me]

I would like everyones opinion on the use of deadly force while in a vehicle. I want your opinion on my interpretation of the statute.

776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.--

1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:

(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person's will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and (b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.

I don't feel comfortable with the fact that the statute states that a "forceable entry" had or will occur versus just the phrase "entry".

I searched forcible entry and found this " unlawful entry into or onto another's property esp. when accompanied by force"
http://dictionary.lp.findlaw.com

If lets say while at a red light or in a parking lot someone comes to my car and opens my car door, am I allowed to shoot him/her because I felt that they would/will/could cause me great bodily harm (or may carjack me) or do they have to use "force" or violance before I can shoot?

 

[MiklColt45]

Your vehicle has the same protection as your home.
You would most likely be in the right to protect yourself and stop the threat.

However, I would personally hit the gas and get the heck out of there.
If the BG is hanging on, let's see how strong his hands are when I take the next corner at 45-50mph.

 

[Glock23-4-Me]

Your vehicle has the same protection as your home.

I agree, the statute I posted states just that, the issue is the "forceable entry" is required before use of deadly force is warrented. "forceable" being the issue that is in question.

However, I would personally hit the gas and get the heck out of there.
If the BG is hanging on, let's see how strong his hands are when I take the next corner at 45-50mph.

easy to do if you are 1st in line at a stop light. If you are behind someone or you are in parking lot with car in park, doing so is not that easy

 

[steve66]

However, I would personally hit the gas and get the heck out of there.
If the BG is hanging on, let's see how strong his hands are when I take the next corner at 45-50mph.

I am sure your car can go faster than 50 mph in a turn

 

[T.S.]

I think this will answer your question ....

http://www.flsenate.gov/STATUTES/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0776/SEC031.HTM&Title=->2008->Ch0776->Section%20031#0776.031

The 2008 Florida Statutes

Title XLVI
CRIMES Chapter 776
JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE

776.031 Use of force in defense of others.--

A person is justified in the use of force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on, or other tortious or criminal interference with, either real property other than a dwelling or personal property, lawfully in his or her possession or in the possession of another who is a member of his or her immediate family or household or of a person whose property he or she has a legal duty to protect. However, the person is justified in the use of deadly force only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. A person does not have a duty to retreat if the person is in a place where he or she has a right to be.

http://www.flsenate.gov/STATUTES/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0776/SEC08.HTM&Title=->2008->Ch0776->Section%2008#0776.08

Title XLVI
CRIMES Chapter 776
JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE

776.08 Forcible felony.--

"Forcible felony" means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.

 

[Glock23-4-Me]

would one assume that someone approaches your car and opens your car door that they are attempting to carjack you or does there have to be more? does there have to be the "threat of violence"

 

[Rvrctyrngr]

If lets say while at a red light or in a parking lot someone comes to my car and opens my car door, am I allowed to shoot him/her because I felt that they would/will/could cause me great bodily harm (or may carjack me) or do they have to use "force" or violance before I can shoot?

How is somebody going to open your door if its LOCKED???

SA and proper preparation are your friends, G. Do you leave your home's doors unlocked?

 

[T.S.]

would one assume that someone approaches your car and opens your car door that they are attempting to carjack you or does there have to be more? does there have to be the "threat of violence"

I think this section will better answer your question. you need to advise the responding LEOS's that you reasonably believed that such force was " necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to " yourself.

Always remember ... " I was in fear of my life. "

Title XLVI
CRIMES Chapter 776
JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.--

A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or

(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

 

[deadeyedick]

First of all, there is absolutely NO reason to EVER drive around with your car doors unlocked. If you keep them locked, it will be virtually impossible for someone to remove you from your vehicle without a lot of time and/or specialized tools.

That leaves only windows as a means of entry to your vehicle...the only way to get through them is to break them, and that is a forcible entry.

While it's better to second-guess yourself on an online forum than on the street, I think that some of you guys spend entirely too much time trying to formulate equations from a multitude of variables to determine when you're justified in pulling out a gun...I find that the 'pucker scale' is a much more accurate method of determining when gunplay is appropriate. If you feel like your life is in peril, ACT! It's that simple.

It's a lot easier to let lawers sort out the mess than surgeons.

 

[Glock23-4-Me]

First of all, there is absolutely NO reason to EVER drive around with your car doors unlocked.

I have a truck I drive to work that is 17 years old and I can not open the vehicle from the inside. Also it has no a/c so I drive with window down. If I suffred which I dont plan to do, I can have window up but I would have to lock my door. If I lock my door, because I can not open it from inside, I would have to take my key out of car and try to find the hole to unlock the car while still on the inside. This is a pain in the ...... That is why I drive with door unlocked.

While it's better to second-guess yourself on an online forum than on the street, I think that some of you guys spend entirely too much time trying to formulate equations from a multitude of variables to determine when you're justified in pulling out a gun...

You said it yourself. Its best to have a game plan. If I did not think about things like this, I would be in a world of hurt. I doubt BROWNIE or others would be a subject matter expert on self defense if he never practiced or thought about what he would do in a given situation.

 

[deadeyedick]

Oh, I absolutely agree that you should run defensive scenarios through your head all the time. What I am finding disturbing is the apparent vacillating on whether or not to act at all. You don't need the government's permission to protect yourself. Personally, I'm not going to worry about whether or not I'm going to 'get in trouble' for acting in my own defense. If someone is trying to pull you from your car, SHOOT THEM! It ain't rocket science.

 

[brownie]

Glock23-4-Me,

"Forethought goes a long way" I repeat that to people over and over again as it's imperative to have forethought and work through potential scenarios so the mind doesn't have to work to formulate a basic plan at the time of incident.

If you've worked out a basic plan mentally before something happens, the mind is then just searching it's databanks for solutions preplanned. The human mind can calculate faster than any computer on earth. If it has a pre arranged program it can access instantly, it's not cluttered with searching for solutions, but instead adapting basic preset options at incredible speeds.

In your own situation with your truck-----if it were mine and I had to live within the parameters you have laid out I'd have my gun between the seat and my left thigh, the grip accessible to my hand. If I were in a known bad area and had to stop at a red light or stop sign, my right hand would be on the grip of the gun if I thought there was any potential for someone walking up to the door in an unwarranted/unwanted act.

I don't know why they are opening my door, but I know it's uninvited and not wanted and the likelihood of some form of aggression on their part is probably going to take shape here.

With the gun in the position I described, if they are aggressive or threatening in their actions, particularly visible showing a weapon of some kind, they'd be greeted with the muzzle of my own firearm, the last thing they would be seeing was a muzzle flash. If it was a friend messing with you, you'd immediately recognize them and not need to draw the weapon from it's place of rest.

When I worked surveillance's at night, I'd leave the window down on occasion because I couldn't leave the car running with the air on or be made in the vehicle. My sidearm sat where I've indicated above at all times with my hand on the guns grip.

Had a few instances over the 28 years in that line of work in very bad neighborhoods where uninvited "guests" tried to lean into the window or open the door and they always backed up when they ran into the muzzle of the firearm [ back then it was an SA govt model in 45acp ].

I know a guy who drove wrecker for the city of Boston at night and had the gun in that position at all times moving about the city. At a red light one morning about 3am with the tow truck, a young male jumped up on the running board and stuck a knife to his neck demanding his wallet.

He obliged by pulling the firearm up and firing point blank into the kids face while looking straight ahead. The light turned green and he drove away, never looked down at the kid and didn't care whether the kid lived or died later in the street.

A gun in the hand is the fastest draw you can make. If I were in your situation, the gun would be kept under my leg and be available immediately when I deemed it potentially necessary.

Just my opinion and an option to consider. Hope that helps

Brownie

 

[Glock23-4-Me]

Brownie, thanks for taking the time to reply. I can see that you spent some time writing down your thoughts on my question and it is appreciated. :drinks


deadeyedick, I also appreciate your clarification on the matter of running scenarios through your head.

 

[brownie]

Glock23-4-Me,

My pleasure sir. :thumsup

Stay sharp out there!!!!

Brownie

 

[MiklColt45]

easy to do if you are 1st in line at a stop light. If you are behind someone or you are in parking lot with car in park, doing so is not that easy

Situational awareness is our friend.

If I am not first in line, I am leaving enough space between me and the car in front of me so I can get the heck out of there. If I am in a parking lot, again, I will do all I can to be ready to move. I will not be sitting there in park. When I climb in the car, I lock the doors, turn on the car, move, then put on my seatbelt.

 

[T.S.]

Situational awareness is our friend.

If I am not first in line, I am leaving enough space between me and the car in front of me so I can get the heck out of there. If I am in a parking lot, again, I will do all I can to be ready to move. I will not be sitting there in park. When I climb in the car, I lock the doors, turn on the car, move, then put on my seatbelt.

+1 :thumsup

It was taught early on that while on patrol the officer was ALWAYS to leave approximately a car length ahead of him open so if he needed to pull out of traffic to respond to a call, the space would be available for him to do so.

The same goes for me now. When I am stopped at a traffic light or stop sign, I always leave enough space ahead of me to make an exit if necessary.

Several years ago this practice saved me from being hit from behind. I was stopped in traffic, I heard tires squeal as a vehicle was trying to stop in a hurry, I quickly looked in my rear view mirror, saw the car behind me being struck from behind, I stepped on the accelerator and swerved the wheel to the left, just as the vehicle which had been behind me was pushed ahead to where I had been. It had to have missed me by inches, but I had avoided a big problem.

 

[MPDC66]

I am an ex LEO. I believe that the situation calls for the application of "what would a reasonable person assume or do?"

Each situation is different and mere fear is NOT enough. There has to be a demonstrated act on the part of the assaulter that a "reasonable person would believe he/she is in imminant danger".

Example, if an 80 year old woman opens your passenger door and you tell her to get out and she refuses, DON'T shoot her! A reasonable person would realize she is confused and probably harmless.

HOWEVER, if three men approach you screaming curses at you and shaking their fists (or brandishing bats) and begin clubbing your windows or trying to force your doors open, have at 'em.

I realize these are the extremes BUT judgment dictates you act reasonably and both examples demonstrate situations where you should NOT and are permitted to, IMO.

I'll add to the above with you have a better chance that reason will prevail with a jury than with a thug , high on meth and hellbent to smash your face and take your car.

 

[Glock23-4-Me]

Example, if an 80 year old woman opens your passenger door and you tell her to get out and she refuses, DON'T shoot her! A reasonable person would realize she is confused and probably harmless.

So your saying that I can't take out granny??? What if it's this granny??

 

[T.S.]

Each situation is different and mere fear is NOT enough. There has to be a demonstrated act on the part of the assaulter that a "reasonable person would believe he/she is in imminant danger".

Example, if an 80 year old woman opens your passenger door and you tell her to get out and she refuses, DON'T shoot her! A reasonable person would realize she is confused and probably harmless.

HOWEVER, if three men approach you screaming curses at you and shaking their fists (or brandishing bats) and begin clubbing your windows or trying to force your doors open, have at 'em.

These are reasonable examples of what can and cannot be done.

When one is carrying a firearm capable of inflicting severe injury or death, one has to act in a prudent manner, and make split second decisions.

Welcome to the world of a LEO guys. :wave

 

[MPDC66]

So your saying that I can't take out granny??? What if it's this granny??

Looks like she got the drop on ya! Just do as she tells you and hope for the best!:rolf