Use of deadly force on Motorcycle

7396 Views 57 Replies 23 Participants Last post by Paragon, Jun 27, 2009

357P95

Discussion Starter · Jun 9, 2009

I just recently bought a motorcycle and carry while riding. I understand the laws pertaining to the use of deadly force in a passenger vehicle (Castle Doctrine) but how does the law apply to riding a motorcycle? Any special rules here or is it pretty much the same as if you were a pedestrian walking down a sidewalk? Sitting on a bike at a traffic light doesn't leave you with any retreat or barrier between you and the other person.

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MPDC66

· #2 · Jun 9, 2009

That would probably require a legal ruling since you are not "inside" a vehicle. However, Florida supports your right to not "retreat" so I would treat it the same way as I would if I was on foot.

I realize the limitations of holding the bike up while stationary AND defending yourself might complicate your options (difficult to turn around, limited motion).

A more interesting question might be what happens when assauted or harrassed by a vehicle, in motion.

deadeyedick

· #3 · Jun 9, 2009

Not totally related, but interesting...I remember back in the 90s (I think), a bank robber was being pursued by Tom Buck, a JSO motorcycle officer. He was actually firing his service weapon at the robber as he chased him while riding the motorcycle. :ak

Glock23-4-Me

· #4 · Jun 9, 2009

357P95 Welcome to the forum.
per f.s. a motorcycle would be the same as a private passenger automobile

776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.--

1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:

(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person's will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and

(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.

(5) As used in this section, the term:

(c) "Vehicle" means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property.

This is consistant with Jon Gutmacher's "Florida Firearms Law, use & Ownership book. If you do not yet have one, may I suggest you get it. It is a very good read.

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Buckley

· #5 · Jun 9, 2009

357P95 said:
I just recently bought a motorcycle and carry while riding. I understand the laws pertaining to the use of deadly force in a passenger vehicle (Castle Doctrine) but how does the law apply to riding a motorcycle? Any special rules here or is it pretty much the same as if you were a pedestrian walking down a sidewalk? Sitting on a bike at a traffic light doesn't leave you with any retreat or barrier between you and the other person.

I would agree with Glock23-4-ME, 776.013 applies, but I'm not certain I understand what you are asking. If you are asking if you can use deadly force while on your bike if someone tries a FF against you? Yes, as much as if you were in your car. If you are looking for clarification on something more specific, let us know.

Xbonz

· #6 · Jun 9, 2009

MPDC66 said:
.

A more interesting question might be what happens when assauted or harrassed by a vehicle, in motion.

I've asked that question before, never got a real answer. Perhaps Mr. Buckley can advise. If you are on your bike and someone is on your tail, with what appears to be 'bad intentions', what can one do legally?
I know from experience speeding up is not always an answer, pulling over is not the answer, and slowing down is definitely not the answer. I've been lucky in that when it happened I was close to 'civilization' and therefore witnesses. By the way for those who ride but are not aware of this little trick...colorless glass marbles carried in a vest pocket make an amazingly scary noise when they hit a windshield (preferably the one behind you) at speed..Also very hard to see..:drinks

RadTek

· #7 · Jun 9, 2009

Glock23-4-Me said:
...

(c) "Vehicle" means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property....

I guess that would include bicycles, skatboards, rollerblades...etc...right?

Ok, I know this is a serious subject...but, the "visual" of some guy jazzing down the road on one of those "razor" push scooters firign their weapon is KILLING me!! :rolf:rolf Ultra low budget action flick comes to mind..:laughing

Seriously, good question 357P95 for those of us who ride. Something, I honestly hadn't thought about. Thanks for putting it out there for discussion. :thumsup

Glock23-4-Me

· #8 · Jun 9, 2009

RadTek said:
I guess that would include bicycles, skatboards, rollerblades...etc...right?

Ok, I know this is a serious subject...but, the "visual" of some guy jazzing down the road on one of those "razor" push scooters firign their weapon is KILLING me!! :rolf:rolf Ultra low budget action flick comes to mind..:laughing

Seriously, good question 357P95 for those of us who ride. Something, I honestly hadn't thought about. Thanks for putting it out there for discussion. :thumsup

according to Jon Gutmacher's book, his opinion is that a bicycle would not qualify as a "vehicle" even though it is not motorized. So if a bicycle is not a "vehicle" then I know a skateboard or rollerblades are not either. I am not sure about the reasoning behind his opinion unless a bicycle is not designed to transport people. It may be designed to carry "a person" but not "people" being plural. And by design, most motorcycles can carry more than one person. Again, I am justing grasping at straws but that could be why.

BobL

· #9 · Jun 9, 2009

Under the motor vehicle code bicycles are vehicles, so I was a little perturbed to read Gutmacher saying that he didn't think so. I'm a cyclist, and back on New Years' Eve 1999 (well, the day before) my wife and I were run down by a pick up truck while out for a ride. Our vehicle (car) insurance paid for medical, until it was used up.

After the kind of crap that any cyclist goes through - being run off the road, having Big Gulps thrown at you, having someone ride up alongside and try to door you - I had thought about carrying on the bike. Not very practical, though; the saddle bag is the best place and you'd have to get off the bike to get to a defensive position.

Maybe a bike jersey that says "I Am the NRA" in giant type.

Maybe add a large profile of a pistol. :laughing

BobL

357P95

Discussion Starter · #10 · Jun 10, 2009

Thank you to all for the warm welcome and information! As far as questions it was more a general one, I was just trying to get a feel for how the law works with motorcycles.

For instance, if you are in a car at a traffic light and someone busts out your driver window and tries to get in the vehicle or extract you from it, it is my understanding that you may legally shoot them even if they do not have a weapon. Now, take the same scenerio but substitute the bike at a traffic light. You are approached my someone trying to force you off the bike or they attack you. Is the use of deadly force justified, even if the other person is not armed? You are on your personal conveyance (motorcycle), and have no duty to retreat (and probably could not even if you wanted to). Just trying to see where the line is. Of course this is coming from somewhere so I just might as well tell my story:

The wife and I were out for a ride last weekend. We are both new riders and both of us got our first bikes and are still cautious. We come up to a traffic light that is red. We stop, wait for it to turn green, look both ways to make sure no traffic is coming (would hate to be T-boned by a red light runner) and then proceed to take off. This delays the take off from the light a few seconds but we would rather be safe than sorry. The man behind us was apparently in a hurry. When we took off from the light and he rode our tails all the way to the next light (the road was a 4 lane road, he could have easily and legally passed us).

The next red light, same drill, light turns green and we wait to go. The man behind us lays on his horn and starts screaming and flicking us off out his window. We did not awknowledge him, we went about our business. The man pulls up next to us yelling and screaming and swerves into our lane almost hitting my wife. She hits the brakes and lets him go by, I yell out "What the hell is your problem?!" as I slam on my brakes to let Mr. Impatient go by. At the next light he was a car in front of us, he leans out the window and starts yelling and screaming at us (couldn't quite make out what he was saying). At one point he looked like he was going to get out of his vehicle and come to us.

*IF* he had hopped out of his vehicle unarmed to assault us would we have been within our rights to defend ourselves with deadly force? That is my specific question. Not sure what the guys deal was but he seemed very unstable. At that point is when I realized how vulnerable you are on a motorcycle.

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brownie

· #11 · Jun 10, 2009

357P95 said:
Thank you to all for the warm welcome and information! As far as questions it was more a general one, I was just trying to get a feel for how the law works with motorcycles.

For instance, if you are in a car at a traffic light and someone busts out your driver window and tries to get in the vehicle or extract you from it, it is my understanding that you may legally shoot them even if they do not have a weapon. Now, take the same scenerio but substitute the bike at a traffic light. You are approached my someone trying to force you off the bike or they attack you. Is the use of deadly force justified, even if the other person is not armed? You are on your personal conveyance (motorcycle), and have no duty to retreat (and probably could not even if you wanted to). Just trying to see where the line is. Of course this is coming from somewhere so I just might as well tell my story:

The wife and I were out for a ride last weekend. We are both new riders and both of us got our first bikes and are still cautious. We come up to a traffic light that is red. We stop, wait for it to turn green, look both ways to make sure no traffic is coming (would hate to be T-boned by a red light runner) and then proceed to take off. This delays the take off from the light a few seconds but we would rather be safe than sorry. The man behind us was apparently in a hurry. When we took off from the light and he rode our tails all the way to the next light (the road was a 4 lane road, he could have easily and legally passed us).

The next red light, same drill, light turns green and we wait to go. The man behind us lays on his horn and starts screaming and flicking us off out his window. We did not awknowledge him, we went about our business. The man pulls up next to us yelling and screaming and swerves into our lane almost hitting my wife. She hits the brakes and lets him go by, I yell out "What the hell is your problem?!" as I slam on my brakes to let Mr. Impatient go by. At the next light he was a car in front of us, he leans out the window and starts yelling and screaming at us (couldn't quite make out what he was saying). At one point he looked like he was going to get out of his vehicle and come to us.

*IF* he had hopped out of his vehicle unarmed to assault us would we have been within our rights to defend ourselves with deadly force? That is my specific question. Not sure what the guys deal was but he seemed very unstable. At that point is when I realized how vulnerable you are on a motorcycle.

As I've been riding motors since 1969, I might be able to shed some light on tactics in your specific situation here:

*IF* he had hopped out of his vehicle unarmed to assault us would we have been within our rights to defend ourselves with deadly force?

I've been involved in a considerable amount of very similar encounters over the years. If I'm aware I might be facing any form of confrontation, the kickstand goes down automatically and immediately. I can exit off the bike from either side and just let the bike go knowing the bike will not go down.

If you think you were going to be approached by an irate person, get that stand down and be ready to get off the bike. Bike to neutral gear at lights always, I don't leave it in gear with the clutch in.

You don't know he's unarmed to begin with. He may be armed to the teeth and be concealing weapons of any/all kinds on his person which can't be seen. Assume he is armed with at least one weapon [ erring on the side of caution regarding this possibility ]. Always assuming they are armed, get off the bike as soon as possible and prepare for a battle.

Brownie

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XD-Man

· #12 · Jun 10, 2009

Xbonz said:
I've asked that question before, never got a real answer. Perhaps Mr. Buckley can advise. If you are on your bike and someone is on your tail, with what appears to be 'bad intentions', what can one do legally?
I know from experience speeding up is not always an answer, pulling over is not the answer, and slowing down is definitely not the answer. I've been lucky in that when it happened I was close to 'civilization' and therefore witnesses. By the way for those who ride but are not aware of this little trick...colorless glass marbles carried in a vest pocket make an amazingly scary noise when they hit a windshield (preferably the one behind you) at speed..Also very hard to see..:drinks

Usually, on most bikes, you can out-maneuver a cager, especially in traffic where you can go between vehicles to get away.

And I never mess around with clear glass marbles - I prefer steel ball-bearings. They make that "scary noise", too, but they "announce" themselves a lot more! And surprisingly enough, they're not much more visible than the marbles, especially at speed. :aarg

Glock23-4-Me

· #13 · Jun 10, 2009

BobL said:
Under the motor vehicle code bicycles are vehicles, so I was a little perturbed to read Gutmacher saying that he didn't think so. I'm a cyclist, and back on New Years' Eve 1999 (well, the day before) my wife and I were run down by a pick up truck while out for a ride. Our vehicle (car) insurance paid for medical, until it was used up.
:laughing

BobL

I am not familar with a "motor vehicle code". I would be interested in you posting something in regards to that, so I could look at it. If you base your statement on the fact that your car insurance paid for you medical expenses, they would regardless of a motor vehicle code. They would have paid for it if you were struck while walking down the road as well. In Florida everyone who ownes a motor vehicle is required to have Personal Injury Protection ($10,000). It is this coverage people refer to when saying that florida is a "no fault" state. The standard PIP pays for 80% of medical and 60% of lost wages if you are involved in an accident with another vehicle. Again, you can be in a car, on a bicycle, or just walking down the road, it does not matter your own auto insurance will pay for someone mowing you over.

Again, please post something about the "motor vehicle code" that you refer to so that I can do some more reading. Thanks

SouthSide

· #14 · Jun 10, 2009

A few spare nuts and bolts in my front vest pocket has been helpful on more than one occasion, HOWEVER, as stated by Brownie, be ready for battle!

istols

RadTek

· #15 · Jun 10, 2009 (Edited)

I've been riding pretty much most my life. My first motorized vehicle was a dirt bike. I've owned a street cruiser pretty much before I got my driver's liscense and my first car. I've seen it all, from ciggarette butts thrown in my face to dodging all kinds of garbage..to being run off the road completely requireing me to "dump" the bike. For some reason, some drivers just HATE us two-wheelers!

357P95 said:
... We did not awknowledge him, we went about our business....

First of all, I wanted to point out, that in my opinion, that's the number one thing to do and keep in mind. Particularly on a bike, I know we all have a tendancy to want to "react". But, that almost always only serves to inflame the situation even more and the venerablity of a rider on a bike changes things.

Yes, Florida is a stand your ground state. But, in my humble opinion, on a bike, we're significantly out-gunned on the highway vs other 4-wheeled vehicles. We have absolutely NO cover, no protection around us and we're riding something that, from a balance standpoint, has no stability what so ever requireing more concentration to keep upright and stable at the slower speeds these scenarios might play out.. but, we do have the upper hand in manuverabilty in spades. So, it's my feeling that retreat is our best ally in those situations. We can literally turn around inside a parking space and fit between vehicles, buildings, heck, in a get-the-heck-outta-there scenario, between pedestrians on the sidewalk! So, getting away from that threat is easy, and little to no inconvenience. Once our situational awareness informs us of a potential threat, it's super easy on a bike to either back off, turn, or, if needed, even wrench the throttle and get the heck out of there!! That's why I've always advised new riders to go for as much power as they feel comfortable handleing. While rare and highly not advisable from a safety and traffic laws standpoint, there are just those oddball times when the best course of action to avoid a threat or problem is to yank on it.

I'll let folks like Brownie cover your options when you find yourself with no other choice but to throw the kickstand down. But, I agree with him for sure. Once you find yourself with no other alternative, it's time to get off that bike. You're litterally a trapped, sitting duck there.

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RadTek

· #16 · Jun 10, 2009

I realize some of you are probably kidding, but, I actually know a fella thet keeps a few of those HUGE ball-bearings from a automotive CV joint in his riding vest.

Needless to say I ride INFRONT of him! :rolf

RadTek

· #17 · Jun 10, 2009

Oh yea, sorry, don't mean to hog the thread, but, as an avid rider, this is a subject that's near and dear to my heart.....

357P95, as a new rider...even as an experienced rider..good for you for "checking up" at those traffic lights. NEVER let traffic behind you goad you into doing something you don't feel is safe. You're right..any intersection is our most dangerous moments on a bike. A runaway red light blaster would make to a very BAD day for a biker indeed!

Remeber, it's YOU that has to go home tonight safely....no one else's "feelings" matter on the road!

Paladin

· #18 · Jun 10, 2009

Xbonz said:
...colorless glass marbles carried in a vest pocket make an amazingly scary noise when they hit a windshield (preferably the one behind you) at speed..Also very hard to see..:drinks

A .45 does an even better job and is a lot more fun. :rolf

Seriously, I don't ride and have no interest in it. I have several good friends who ride (mostly Harleys) and I am very conscientious when I'm behind bikers.

Not all of us cagers are you enemy.:drinks

MPDC66

· #19 · Jun 10, 2009

Paladin said:
A .45 does an even better job and is a lot more fun. :rolf

Seriously, I don't ride and have no interest in it. I have several good friends who ride (mostly Harleys) and I am very conscientious when I'm behind bikers.

Not all of us cagers are you enemy.:drinks

But Paladin, surely you know you're missing out on the "Pirate thing"!:rolf

(Hey, I can say it, been riding Harleys since 1969 and have laughed at this phenomena in person!)

Buckley

· #20 · Jun 10, 2009

Wow. What a great thread.

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