[tailspin]

I was out on the river with my son on Fathers Day doing some fishing around Ponce Inlet. The USCG came to do a safety inspection. As they approached the boat their first question was"is there any weapons on board." Of course I had to answer yes. The weapon was in a bag not on my person. I showed them the bag and they told me not to approach it that one of them would board and get the bag. I gave them my registration , drivers license and CWL. They emptied the gun and took it in the cabin of their vessel. I was talking with a LEO that was on board and he told me that TSA and ICE were also on board. We talked about guns and permits and the castle doctrine in which he was very pro CWL. I am sure they ran a check on the gun and also on myself of which everything was good. As he put the gun back in the bag, he left it unloaded and asked if I would leave that way until I left. Overall they were very professional and I had told them that. This was the first time that this has happened to me and it was alittle nerve racking but I am glad that it happened so the next time I will be more relaxed and if I get a LEO who might be on edge at least me being more calm might make the LEO more relax.

The bad part was NO FISH

 

[Paladin]

No fish. Bummer. :thumbsdwn

Oh, great job on maintaining your cool.

 

[Rvrctyrngr]

Does anyone but me have an issue with the CG 'running' his gun without P/C of a crime?

 

[capngeo]

Does anyone but me have an issue with the CG 'running' his gun without P/C of a crime?

Maritime law is TOTALLY different than terrestrial. Law Enforcement does not need PC for boarding or searches of the vessel... even in state waters.

Once I was pushing 2 head barges at 1700 tons each.... 220' of barge, and 55' of push boat, and a newbie coastie wanted me to "heave to for boarding". I dropped to steerage, and called the Capt. of the Port and explained the situation; I was in a narrow channel and would have been aground in 90 seconds if I stopped. I asked if the CG was willing to assume responsibility for any damage to the vessels or the bay bottom. I was in Tampa bay at the time... The Capt of the Port made the newbie follow me to my destination for boarding..... in Ft Myers! 98 miles at 4 mph..... I think the noob got the message!

 

[cayrbee]

Yes sir great outcome.

 

[Rvrctyrngr]

Maritime law is TOTALLY different than terrestrial. Law Enforcement does not need PC for boarding or searches of the vessel... even in state waters.

Once I was pushing 2 head barges at 1700 tons each.... 220' of barge, and 55' of push boat, and a newbie coastie wanted me to "heave to for boarding". I dropped to steerage, and called the Capt. of the Port and explained the situation; I was in a narrow channel and would have been aground in 90 seconds if I stopped. I asked if the CG was willing to assume responsibility for any damage to the vessels or the bay bottom. I was in Tampa bay at the time... The Capt of the Port made the newbie follow me to my destination for boarding..... in Ft Myers! 98 miles at 4 mph..... I think the noob got the message!

I certainly understand all that, Cap, grew up on the water myself and had many encounters with the USCG and (then) Marine Patrol...never any problems, and they never took weapons off of my vessel to 'run' them, and there were always weapons on board.

I wasn't talking about the boarding, as that is a perfectly legitimate action n the part of the USCG. I was talking about removal of personal property from the vessel. 4th Amendment applies to Federal Law, whether terrestrial or maritime.

 

[daytona]

Does anyone but me have an issue with the CG 'running' his gun without P/C of a crime?

If you have a lawful gun so what, your tags get run every traffic stop and no "crime" has been commited - i bet they find alot of stolen guns this way and if it was mine that was recovered i'd be glad they ran it. The Coast Guard is under the Dept of Homeland Security so as a federal agency they probably have more rights.

 

[Rvrctyrngr]

If you have a lawful gun so what, your tags get run every traffic stop and no "crime" has been commited - i bet they find alot of stolen guns this way and if it was mine that was recovered i'd be glad they ran it. The Coast Guard is under the Dept of Homeland Security so as a federal agency they probably have more rights.

More rights than who?

....and when your tags are 'run' at a stop, a crime has certainly been committed, or thought to have been committed (traffic violation), or you wouldn't have been stopped in the first place. Even so, they don't take your watch, laptop, cell phone and 'run' them to see if they're stolen, do they?

 

[Franklin]

More rights than who?

....and when your tags are 'run' at a stop, a crime has certainly been committed, or thought to have been committed (traffic violation), or you wouldn't have been stopped in the first place. Even so, they don't take your watch, laptop, cell phone and 'run' them to see if they're stolen, do they?

Glad we have people like you. Most are, like me, more docile. If we don't have people like you showing us the line in the sand that shouldn't be crossed, there would be no line...and less rights too!:thumsup
Franklin

 

[jimmills]

I'm afraid I have to disagree with the right to board any ship or boat anywhere. That is a government entity that has gone too far. It needs to be reined in.

They even board ships flying flags of other nations in international waters. This is an act of war or piracy no matter what they call it. Your liberal government at work.

Definition: A progressive - A liberal that lies about being a liberal.
A liberal - A treasonous subversive member of a group of people. (Some would say group of sheep, but, in reality, they are wolves in sheeps clothing)

Those are my own definitions.

Guess I got away from the subject here. My apologies to the OP.

Jim

 

[Franklin]

I'm afraid I have to disagree with the right to board any ship or boat anywhere. That is a government entity that has gone too far. It needs to be reined in.

They even board ships flying flags of other nations in international waters. This is an act of war or piracy no matter what they call it. Your liberal government at work.

Definition: A progressive - A liberal that lies about being a liberal.
A liberal - A treasonous subversive member of a group of people. (Some would say group of sheep, but, in reality, they are wolves in sheeps clothing)

Those are my own definitions.

Guess I got away from the subject here. My apologies to the OP.

Jim

Preach it Brother! Don't hold back. Tell us what you really mean!
Franklin

 

[RadTek]

....and when your tags are 'run' at a stop, a crime has certainly been committed, or thought to have been committed (traffic violation), or you wouldn't have been stopped in the first place...

I used to know a fella who was a Seminole County Deputy, so, I did some ride along's with him every so often.

What would surprise you and many people is how often your tag gets run period. That cop sitting behind you at the stop light, most likely just ran your tag. The cop that gets in behind you in traffic for more than a few seconds likely ran your tag. It's SOP for most departments. It's also how they catch most stolen vehicles and perps with warrants.

I understand the need to reign in on government intrusion, but, at the same time, I've also been of the mind, that, they're doing the job they've been asked to do. So long as they handle their quick little "check" on me with professionalism and honor, I've got nothing to hide, I'm doing nothing wrong...what's 3 minutes out of my day in the name of keeping screwballs off the street...or water in this case.

Not every criminal is in the actual act of committing a crime at every moment of the day. I have no problems with them being at least a little proactive in finding the ones they know have already done something bad, the absence of a crime today doesn't forgive the crime committed yesterday.

 

[airhead]

I'm afraid I have to disagree with the right to board any ship or boat anywhere. That is a government entity that has gone too far. It needs to be reined in.

They even board ships flying flags of other nations in international waters. This is an act of war or piracy no matter what they call it. Your liberal government at work.

Definition: A progressive - A liberal that lies about being a liberal.
A liberal - A treasonous subversive member of a group of people. (Some would say group of sheep, but, in reality, they are wolves in sheeps clothing)

Those are my own definitions.

Guess I got away from the subject here. My apologies to the OP.

Jim

They have the right to board and inspect. Not search.

Vessel Inspections pursuant to Section 379.3313, Florida Statutes.
...
(2) The Legislature finds that the checking and inspection of saltwater products aboard vessels is critical to good fishery management and conservation and that, because almost all saltwater products are either iced or cooled in closed areas or containers, the enforcement of seasons, size limits, and bag limits can only be effective when inspection of saltwater products so stored is immediate and routine. Therefore, in addition to the authority granted in subsection (1), a law enforcement officer of the commission who has probable cause to believe that the vessel has been used for fishing prior to the inspection shall have full authority to open and inspect all containers or areas where saltwater products are normally kept aboard vessels while such vessels are on the water, such as refrigerated or iced locations, coolers, fish boxes, and bait wells, but specifically excluding such containers that are located in sleeping or living areas of the vessel.

 

[Tennessee]

They even board ships flying flags of other nations in international waters. This is an act of war or piracy no matter what they call it. Your liberal government at work.

Jim

I have served on Navy ships and conducted numerous (so many I can't recall exactly how many) 6-8 week at a time drug-interdiction operations in the Carib with CG LE types onboard. Also in support of Desert Shield/Storm spent 9 months in the Red Sea, again with CG LE types onboard, enforcing the embargo on Iraq after the invasion of Kuwait. I can tell you from experience the fact that we nor the Coast Guard can just randomly board any foreign vessel (boat, ship whatever) in international waters without either the permission of the ship's Master or the country under whose flag the vessel flies. Pretty much the only exception is if the guy claims registry with a particular country and that country says it isn't so. In that case he is classified a "stateless vessel", he's illegal and the CGs get to board whether the master likes it or not. The other exception is a US flagged vessel, they gotta let the CG board. Rules were just a little bit different in the Gulf War as we basically had right by the UN sanction to board any vessel, remember this was voted by the Security Council including Russia. Side note: Really pissed them (Russian) off when we stopped one of their merchants shipping military supplies (personnel carriers, comms units, etc.) into Jordan probably headed across the border to Iraq, big State Dept involvement on that one. We have a similar issue with this N Korean ship suspected of carrying nuke stuff somewhere. The difference is the UN did not authorize force to stop them Maybe they can throw 40 year old twinkies.

I know there is a whole lot more involved in the legalities, but that is the easy skinny. Bottom line is there are international rules covering those things, agreed upon by the international community. That said, I agree with you that we have way to many liberals and way too much government power. But this is not one of those issues. If I still drank, I'd say :drinks

Joe

 

[capngeo]

They have the right to board and inspect. Not search.

Your siting of FL SS has nothing to do with the Feds..... They CAN and DO board AND SEARCH, whenever and however they please.

I have a friend of mine in Key West who was boarded almost in Cuban Waters (he says he was INSIDE Cuban waters). The USCG literally tore his interior apart with crowbars and saws, forced him to return to Key West under "detention" aboard the CG Cutter, while his vessel was towed behind. He lost his boat to impound for 6 months.

OUTCOME: HE had to pay "storage" while his boat was impounded, HE had to pay to restore the interior, HE had to post a $50K bond just to get out awaiting "final disposition", HE has racked up another $50K in attorney's fees, HE was charged by the CG for the towing of his boat back to KW!

His "crime"??? He was bringing humanitarian relief and medical supplies to Cuba..... He was not charging anyone for it, he had no contraband, HE VIOLATED NO LAW! In fact, he has yet to be charged with a crime by the feds!

AND ALL OF THIS IS PERFECTLY LEGAL UNDER MARITIME LAW!

 

[Atlanta Guy]

He was bringing humanitarian relief and medical supplies to Cuba..... He was not charging anyone for it, he had no contraband, HE VIOLATED NO LAW!

Just asking, I really don't know: it's legal to take (what I assume was undeclared) humanitarian aid to Cuba?

I flew drug interdiction out of Homestead AFB in the mid- to late-80s. Being a boat between the U.S. and Cuba / the Caribbean was sufficient cause to get an overflight. Do they still have the radar blimps down there, btw?

 

[deadeyedick]

On a philosophical level, I am deeply troubled by the Coast Guard's seemingly unlimited power of search and seizure, and I believe that most maritime and customs laws are hopelessly antiquated. I mean, hell, you have a branch of the military engaging in domestic law enforcement. I realize that the Coast Guard is specifically exempted from the Posse Comitatus Act during peacetime, but IMO it shouldn't be.

Here's an interesting article I found about the brutish nature of enforcement that has become common with the USCG; although it was written in '96 and mostly deals with commercial fishermen, the same complaints apply to recreational boaters.

http://www.reason.com/news/show/30071.html

Maybe if you run up a Jolly Roger they'll leave you alone...that seems to work off the coast of Africa.

 

[Steve48]

I wasn't talking about the boarding, as that is a perfectly legitimate action n the part of the USCG. I was talking about removal of personal property from the vessel. 4th Amendment applies to Federal Law, whether terrestrial or maritime.

I don't know what the law says. I do know that I don't care much for this either.

 

[Rvrctyrngr]

Glad we have people like you. Most are, like me, more docile. If we don't have people like you showing us the line in the sand that shouldn't be crossed, there would be no line...and less rights too!:thumsup
Franklin

Franklin...please don't misunderstand my thoughts here....Had I been in the same situation, I would have said absolutely nothing except 'Yes Petty Officer, or Chief or LT or whatever'. The time to argue is NOT on the side of the road or along side a CG cutter. But I DEFINITELY would have taken up the issue of the seizure of my personal property with the CO and my attorney.

Your siting of FL SS has nothing to do with the Feds..... They CAN and DO board AND SEARCH, whenever and however they please.

I have a friend of mine in Key West who was boarded almost in Cuban Waters (he says he was INSIDE Cuban waters). The USCG literally tore his interior apart with crowbars and saws, forced him to return to Key West under "detention" aboard the CG Cutter, while his vessel was towed behind. He lost his boat to impound for 6 months.

OUTCOME: HE had to pay "storage" while his boat was impounded, HE had to pay to restore the interior, HE had to post a $50K bond just to get out awaiting "final disposition", HE has racked up another $50K in attorney's fees, HE was charged by the CG for the towing of his boat back to KW!

His "crime"??? He was bringing humanitarian relief and medical supplies to Cuba..... He was not charging anyone for it, he had no contraband, HE VIOLATED NO LAW! In fact, he has yet to be charged with a crime by the feds!

AND ALL OF THIS IS PERFECTLY LEGAL UNDER MARITIME LAW!

Absolutely, Cap. Board and Search is not the issue, and I don't have much of a problem with that. I've directed CG to more boardings of go-fasts than I care to remember. Seizure of personal property is an issue. Like I said previously, the BoR applies to the Feds whether maritime or terrestrial.

 

[brownie]

Interesting thread.

Glad I don't go boating/fishing to find out what would happen if they boarded my boat and wanted me to disarm and them confiscate the firearm from my sight.

I'd likely ask for the citing of the statute that says they can "seize" my property without probable cause of a crime having been committed. If they can I'd be an unhappy camper. I think they could ask that I disarm for their safety, but to confiscate and run the gun as SOP without probable cause to do so seems to go against the idea you are innocent till proven guilty.

Brownie