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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
There are many stops along the road. Lets look at some of them

Novice:
1. Knows which end the bullet come out, knows to use the grip to hold the gun
2. All of 1 plus has a rudimentary command of the basics shooting two handed.
3. All the above [ ata ] and has full command of the basics shooting two handed
4. Ata and can safely draw a gun from it's holster

Intermediate shooter:
5. Ata and facing a target can draw and fire on a target 5 yrds away in 3 seconds two handed
6. Ata and can draw and fire on same target in 2 seconds two handed
7. Ata and can draw and fire on same target in 1 second two handed
8. Ata and can draw one handed and fire on the same target in 3 seconds one handed
9/10. repeat of 8 in 2 then 1 seconds
11. Ata and can not only hit the target, but remain inside a 9" circle [ COM ] for the first shot in 3 seconds two handed
12/13. repeat of 11 but in 2 then 1 second

Advanced:
14. Ata and can draw and fire on threat at 5 yrds staying inside that 9" COM one handed
15. Ata and can do that in no more than 1.5 seconds [ from concealed ]
16. Ata and can shoot from no less than 6 positions [ like 1/2, 3/4, Point shoulder, behind your back, QK hip multiples one handed, laying on your side/s, back etc as we live in a 360 world, not the 180 world the range demands
17. Ata and can shoot nearly or equally as well with either hand
18. Ata and can shoot two guns simultaneously on two threats out to 12-15 feet
19. Ata and doesn't need use of the sights at distances out to at least 30 feet
20. Has attained a level of speed that allows 1 second shots from concealed on demand at 5 yrds, staying inside that COM of 9"

Beyond advanced
21. Can draw and fire on the move making COM hits
22. Can draw and fire in 1 second from concealed
23. Can shoot to sounds in total darkness up to 12 feet [ now we're getting into the realm of using other senses beside vision ]
24. Can draw and fire on two threats 10 feet down range and 6 feet apart in 1.1-1.3 seconds from concealed

How long have you been shooting pistols and where do you fall into the above categories?
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
:ROFLMAO: 23 views, no responses. I know, I ask the hard introspective questions.

When I asked 6 USAF PJ's which person in the group was the worst shot, no one would reply like no one knew the answer to the question. They did, and when called on it, they all pointed to the Lt.

It's been my observation here and elsewhere over the last few decades that people don't feel the need to spend the time and money to be all they can be, fair to good on a square range is good enough ITO.

Priorities, that's all this comes down to really.
 

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Well brownie, it takes a bit of time for one to truthfully assess one's place on this "spectrum" never before seen nor previously considered in such detail. For now, I believe I can say I'm at least somewhere at least at 15 or 16 and could be higher with more recurrent training and practice than I've been able to experience lately. Those opportunities in a live-fire setting are few and far between these days. So it's really just a SWAG based on past experience ONLY on a training range. :unsure:
 

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That’s a lot of ATAs.😬
I think I’m somewhere in the middle of advanced?
Not sure on draw times. As we age and arthritis sets into shoulders things don’t move as quick as they used to unfortunately.
22 not sure on
23 I did at one of your classes. Still have the video on YouTube. Distance to them was a bit closer. Distance apart was a bit closer. But I got one round on each from concealment in less than 2 secs. That was at the end of the second day I think and I had fired a crap ton of ammo at that class. Fresh might be quicker. Might not.
 

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:ROFLMAO: 23 views, no responses. I know, I ask the hard introspective questions.

When I asked 6 USAF PJ's which person in the group was the worst shot, no one would reply like no one knew the answer to the question. They did, and when called on it, they all pointed to the Lt.

It's been my observation here and elsewhere over the last few decades that people don't feel the need to spend the time and money to be all they can be, fair to good on a square range is good enough ITO.

Priorities, that's all this comes down to really.
I was headed out for awhile when I read your post.

Aside from two-gun work and shooting at sounds in the dark, I'm pretty squared away on most of the items covered. I'm somewhere in the neighborhood of 3/4 of a second with hip and point shoulder distances from concealment. At seven yards, I'm reliable in the A zone at seven yards at 1.1, can hit the B in the .9s with an occasional A, and have a personal best of .82. At twenty-five yards, I'm becoming reliable in the A zone in 1.5-1.6 seconds.
 

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I'm still working on #1.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
I’d say that I’m at 21.
I’ve never in my life shot at anything that I couldn’t see and identify; so I’ve never shot towards a sound.
Back around 06 I started playing with shooting to sound just to develop that skill set. Of course I and two others went to the desert on a starless night, using my steel plates, they'd ding the plate with a pebble, I'd turn and fire on where I thought the sound can from. 1/4 turns from both sides, 1/2 turns to face the sound and fire etc.

What I found was that I had to shoot just left of where I though the plate was, and I'd hit nearly every time. If I shot where I thought it was, I'd hit right edge or off the plate. Just a quirk in my own hearing and minds eye, but after a short time, the hits were repeatable. That's a whole new level of instinct shooting, to say the least.

Wanted to see if that auditory and minds eye visual could be developed. It can be and was. We're so much more capable of developing other senses than most realize. This was all in an effort to help a young blind man be able to keep a firearm in his home and have some experience with shooting at sound/noises. When I brought him out the next time after playing with it, he was amazingly accurate in pointing that pistol where the sound originated from. Helping the handicapped overcome adversity like that was very rewarding.

Long before I started on that road, around 77, I had occasion to be in a very dark alley with two hombre's hunting me with bad intent. I'd lured them into the alley having caught them following me at O dark 30 one evening in a bad section of Boston. Black background, dark dressed hombres, I could hear them, but couldn't see them until they were nearly on top of me. It all ended well, I left them in the alley where they understood not to follow me out of same or they wouldn't be so fortunate.

We used to shoot under black lights from 50 feet. The targets were painted with flourescent paint 1/2 outline, full outline, head shots etc on small humanoid paper targets. No night sights allowed. So you couldn't see the gun in front of your face, just the faint outline of a threat 50 feet away. It was a winter night shoot called appropriately "black light shoot". First year I took 2nd, 2nd year I took first place. I developed a system whereby I knew when my barrel crossed the painted line, then fired. Of course your hand hold and trigger control had to be spot on for these matches to begin with.
 

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I wouldn’t think that a blind person could legally own a firearm? Isn’t suffering from physical infirmary part of the exception, No? :unsure:
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I wouldn’t think that a blind person could legally own a firearm? Isn’t suffering from physical infirmary part of the exception, No? :unsure:
That federal law generally prohibits different treatment based on disabilities. The Gun Control Act of 1968 and other federal laws do not prohibit blind people from owning guns. States such as Nebraska and South Carolina require applicants for gun permits to show "proof of vision.

Here in Az. we don't need permits to buy/possess or carry. Sucks to be you I guess if you're blind in Nebraska and SC.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Didn’t know that. Seems odd to me but so does the braille at the drive up window. :rolleyes:
He was deadly inside 12 feet on the steel. His echo location was like a bat using it's own. Ding the steel with a pebble, he'd turn, face the location of the sound and fire. Taught him to shoot at shoulder level, keeping the barrel parallel to the ground [ just a little muscle memory and he was on a roll ].

Of course he didn't entertain the idea of carrying it in public, but living on his own, he enjoyed knowing he could defend himself in his home.
 

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He was deadly inside 12 feet on the steel. His echo location was like a bat using it's own. Ding the steel with a pebble, he'd turn, face the location of the sound and fire. Taught him to shoot at shoulder level, keeping the barrel parallel to the ground [ just a little muscle memory and he was on a roll ].

Of course he didn't entertain the idea of carrying it in public, but living on his own, he enjoyed knowing he could defend himself in his home.
That’s really great Brownie! 👍👍
 

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Have done a couple of the things in the Advanced section but not #15 so I guess I'm stuck at #14 of Advanced for now. I have practiced drawing from concealed but under 1.5 secs is going to be an interesting challenge.
 

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No. 17 is what kept me at 15/16. If I was a bit more ambidextrous in my shooting, I'd be at somewhere around 20 and maybe 21 (still have that shirt! 🤣).

By the way, there are two number 22s. Want me to renumber the end of that list? :unsure:
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
That’s really great Brownie! 👍👍
Well, he was on our search team in that era, came up blind one morning due to some inherited gene that came out of dormancy [ from his mothers side ] at 20 yoa ]. He was a technical roper on cliff rescues of the highest order, one of our trackers, and could hoof it through the mountains like no one's business.

His life fell apart after he went blind. Became an alcoholic for a time, but he recovered from the depression and was learning to navigate the world without sight. When he asked me if I could get him to shoot to sound, I thought why not, but I've got to play with it first.

I ended up giving him a 1911 to use that night per his request. He did amazingly well with it and ended up buying it, with the understanding that I'd maintain it for him. He's come a long way, now hikes again with a companion.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
No. 17 is what kept me at 15/16. If I was a bit more ambidextrous in my shooting, I'd be at somewhere around 20 and maybe 21 (still have that shirt! 🤣).

By the way, there are two number 22s. Want me to renumber the end of that list? :unsure:
sure, thanks. I had you at 20-21 already. LOL
 

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:ROFLMAO: 23 views, no responses. I know, I ask the hard introspective questions.

When I asked 6 USAF PJ's which person in the group was the worst shot, no one would reply like no one knew the answer to the question. They did, and when called on it, they all pointed to the Lt.

It's been my observation here and elsewhere over the last few decades that people don't feel the need to spend the time and money to be all they can be, fair to good on a square range is good enough ITO.

Priorities, that's all this comes down to really.
Just saw this..

23. Can shoot to sounds in total darkness up to 12 feet [ now we're getting into the realm of using other senses beside vision ]
A younger me was camping and some racoons came invading our improperly stored food.
It was dark enough to not make out the thieves.
There was plenty of acorns and pebbles on the ground I went to pegging 3 out of 5 or 6 out of 10.
Was doing better than 50% while my buddies couldn't hit one.
Could not imagine doing that with my ears ringing.

17. Ata and can shoot nearly or equally as well with either hand
Decades of practice and it still feels like strange going lefty.

if that's a hard list of standards, maybe we need a state run test to own.
 
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Just saw this..

23. Can shoot to sounds in total darkness up to 12 feet [ now we're getting into the realm of using other senses beside vision ]
A younger me was camping and some racoons came invading our improperly stored food.
It was dark enough to not make out the thieves.
There was plenty of acorns and pebbles on the ground I went to pegging 3 out of 5 or 6 out of 10.
Was doing better than 50% while my buddies couldn't hit one.
Could not imagine doing that with my ears ringing.

17. Ata and can shoot nearly or equally as well with either hand
Decades of practice and it still feels like strange going lefty.

if that's a hard list of standards, maybe we need a state run test to own.
It's not a list of standards, it's a list of skills, or lack thereof that I put together to help others judge their own prowess or lack thereof with a handgun.

With the exception of #3, it's been my observation that 90+% of gun owners fall into the first category. I find that many of those same people will buy numerous firearms every year, and never seek any formal training after they've acquired their ccw [ and I'm speaking to those who buy a firearm with SD in mind, not collectors ].

What level does someone have to attain to be able to defend themselves? Just #1 actually. Having the hardware is easy, having the software, now that's where the rubber meets the road where SD with a handgun is concerned
 
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