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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi all,

I apologize in advance for the length of this post, but it goes to the core of why I'll carry and what I think about that.

Today really got me thinking about sheepdogs, "sheeple", and the responsibility I'll be taking on when I receive my permit and carry a firearm.

My wife and I have two kids; A boy, 2 yrs 8 mos, and a girl, 8 mos. We went to a park in Hollywood (Broward County) today to meet up with my mom who lives in Dade and my aunt, my cousin and her three triplet girls, 2 yrs 7 mos. They're all down here from NYC, which is where I grew up.

Let me start by saying nothing bad actually happened, but enough stuff occurred to keep my family's safety on my mind for the three hours we were at the park.

The park has a couple of play areas. One is obviously geared toward toddlers. It is fenced off and has low slides and small climbing apparatus. The other is available to kids of all ages, but the main set piece is a big climbable plastic pirate ship. The slides are plastic and there is a water spraying apparatus. There is no posted age limit, but it is quite obvious that the apparatus is designed for kids who would be happy to run around on a big plastic pirate ship. What age would that cap-out at? ten? thirteen tops?

No matter where I am with my family I am basically in a state of yellow awareness. I try to keep my head on a swivel without annoying my wife. So when we got to the park, I took a look around to see what we'd be dealing with for the next few hours. Most of what I saw was no big deal. I saw families having bbq's and birthday parties under the various shelters the park provides. I saw other picnic tables full of people and I saw small children (6 yrs and under) playing at the larger, unfenced play area. We walked/wheeled over to a picnic table next to the play area and started putting a water-diaper on my son so he could splash around in the spraying water. We were still waiting on my aunt and cousins to arrive.

The only person who caught my attention was a young man (early 20's?) who was playing in the water area with what I assume were his younger siblings and cousins. He was playing a little rough and jumping around on the pirate ship a bit too much for my taste, but he didn't seem drunk and he wasn't intentionally causing any problems so I chalked it up to being too much of a clown. He ended up being no problem at all.

My son ran around a bit under my watchful eye, and I stood next to him while he played. The water was spraying my sneakers and pants-bottoms, but I didn't want any of the bigger kids to accidentaly run into my boy so I stayed close. Again, I wouldn't have blamed anyone for accidentally running into him, kids are kids, but there was no need to leave him exposed. After a few minutes I heard some lumbering running steps behind me. A rather large young man came running straight into the spraying water and threw himself on the ground and laid there. He seemed to be trying to cool off. He then stood and I noticed that he was holding up his shorts so as not to expose his boxers, which the water was proving were made of a very thin and see-through material. The shorts were cargo type. At first I chuckled wondering why he had unbuttoned his shorts, but then I realized that they weren't open, they were (literally) at least three waist sizes too big. They looked like the shorts he wore before he lost 60 lbs or something. I quickly realized that this young man's shorts were a consscious fashion choice on his part and that they were supposed to hang beneath his buttocks as the young folks are wont to do nowadays. OK, I have little use for "gangstas", but I try not to judge folks based on appearance, so who cares what I think? This kid could be the nicest guy in the world, so what if I think he dresses funny? The thing that DID bother me, though, was that he was easily 5 ft 10 inches tall (I'm 5 ' 7"), weighed close to 170 lbs (I weigh 190) and he couldn't have been less than 16 or 17 yrs old.
And he was going to play on a plastic pirate ship?

I now went to conditon orange. This young man began climbing the bars and running around the pirate ship. he slid down the slides wet, which just made him slide faster. Each time he slid he sprawled at the bottom in a heap that shook the ground near him. This was a physically grown man playing on child's apparatus at full speed. His younger friends/cousins/sibling soon joined him. There were three of them and they looked to range in age from 12 to 14. They were much smaller than he, but still bigger than the dozen or so toddlers that they were weaving in and out of on the plastic ship. They were rough-housing and cursing and jumping and sliding, and I knew it was just a matter of time before some little child got hurt. Well, it was NOT going to be my boy. I lifted my son up and carried him back to the picnic table. He started crying, of course. My wife (who lives in condition white) asked why I wasn't letting him play. I pointed out what was going on and she understood, but suggested I just let him play in the water and keep an eye on him. I looked to where the young man and his cohorts came from and saw a family having a cook-out. There were 5 or 6 men and 4 or 5 women. They had a few small children, but most of the adults were drinking beverages from brown bottles and the music was a bit loud for my tastes. I felt it was not a scene conducive to maintaining orderly behavior among the adolescent members of that clan.

I told her that I wasn't sure how long we'd be staying if this kept up. I got the obligatory eye-roll and "just relax" talk, but stood my ground. I explained that under no circumstances would harm come to my children, even by accident, if I can anticipate and avoid it. And I didn't give a rat's a$$ if my cousin gets annoyed with me for leaving early.

Nevertheless, I walked my son over to the water and he splashed about. I did my best to stay between him and the rowdy big kids, and in the end nothing bad happened. Btu they got dangerously close on several occasions.

As time wore on, that family party over there had its share of shouting. And one of the family members did climb into a newish Chrysler 300 and squeal the shiny rimmed tires for 5 or 6 seconds as he weaved laughing and fist-pumping his way through the parking lot not 30 feet from running toddlers. The big rowdy kid was kind enough to go get a belt so he could tighten his pants around his upper thighs! And after watching several incidents of parents scooping up their kids and taking them out of harm's way (one of which included a dad who narrowly grabbed his crawling baby from in front of the slide as the 17 year old was whipping down again to the bottom - that baby would have needed an ambulance) my wife even commented that these kids were a bunch of a-holes. And when they weren't rampaging like visigoths through the plastic pirate ship, they were on the swing set where two of them would swing and the other three would run betwen the swings trying not to get hit by their pendulous family members.

I never said anything to the big kid or his cousins. My wife suggested I should go say something to the family with the brown bottles. :smack

I explained what I'd been reading about in the Gutmacher book. I felt that saying something to drunk people about how ill-behaved their kin are was a from of escalation that was unnecessary at the time. In addition, I was the only male representing my family and the rest were three women and five children under three years of age. Sun Tzu would not have recommened a strong stance here.

Needless to say, since I still have another 60+ days to wait for my CCW, I was unarmed.

We eventually broke for lunch and headed to the official toddler lot and the day ended without incident.

But the whole thing got me thinking...What if I was armed?

The big kid, the family, none of them had a gun or a knife that i saw. Even if I had a gun, I almost certainly could not have used it. And unless I felt a forcible felony was going to occur (hard to prove when they don't have weapons), I was probably the only one who'd go to jail if the gun came away from its holster.

At the same time, the danger was real. This big kid could have been warned several yimes and still ended up hurting my son. And unless the whole family descended on me while I whacked the kid in the mouth, again, a gun would be useless.

It's strange. I realized that carrying a concealed weapon doesn't solve every problem. At least not if I want to stay out of prison and not get sued. All I could really do today was gather up my family and leave.

And I also got to seriously thinking about how my wife (whom I love dearly and we have a phenomenal and awesome marriage - let there be no doubt or question about that) is basically a sheep. She chooses not to believe that bad things can happen. She wants our boy to grow up adorable and happy, and I have decided to raise him as if he were John Connor, and I'll train him to lead the human resistance against the machines after judgement day. I've asked her if she'd be willing to grab my Beretta if someone broke in while I wasn't home and she basically said "no". I like to believe her motherly instincts would take over and she'd do whatever needed to be done to protect our family, but for now, I'm IT. I read threads about guys buying guns for their wives and I chuckle at the thought in my home.

Bottom line: I'm taking on a huge responsibility here. I have to be smart. I have to know when to use my gun and when not to because a mistake on either side of that dilemma can rob my family of ME. I have to control my emotions and my fears. I have to be protective without being the aggressor. I have to be wary of escalation. i have to set up defenses for my family even when i'm not around.

There's a lot going on. There's a lot to know. I just have to make sure I'm ready for how serious this all is. I have no doubt that if necessary I'll give my life or take someone else's to defend my family. But I think the best thing to do is make sure that to whatever extent possible, I keep my family out of harm's way in the first place.

The moral of our story: Avoidance should be the first method of self-defense.

Thanks for reading.

Dan
 

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Dan,

great post, sound conclusion.

Its unfortunate that an otherwise fun day got tarnished like that. I don't have kids but I am married and I have my head swiveling as much as I can.

I will say that a couple years as a lifeguard taught me how to regularly scan my surroundings and I look back on that training gratefully. I too deal with a spouse who is not as aware as she sometimes should be. Shes a smart woman as your Wife is too, I'm sure. Yet she only recently stopped asking me "why are you bringing your gun to the grocery store/mall/location x?"

I explained the idea of the "soft target" and how if I KNEW that there was going to be a problem at a given location I would simply avoid it. The idea behind carrying is not to get into a fight or be a John Rambo, its to be prepared if you do need to defend yourself.

But, even more importantly as you pointed out, the best defense is simply not being in the dangerous situation in the first place.

While contemplating your post I thought of an example in nature where the life and death nature of staying alert is illustrated in stark relief. Look at any nature film that depicts "watering holes". If the show is worth anything it will highlight how the watering (prey) animals will take quick and nervous drinks and then pop their heads up to keep a look out for predators. Sometimes they even take turns looking out.

The animals that are not vigilant enough risk falling prey to a stealthy and focused stalker.

The predator knows that the prey will be off its guard at the watering hole and therefore chooses that as the place to pounce.

In real life there are some parallels. I can't think of a single instance where a would be criminal or terrorist has tried to storm an American police station or armory (Not saying it hasn't happened, but it seems rare) to wreak mayhem.

On the contrary, we hear about massacres not at fortified and armed positions but at the places that are "known" to be unarmed and virtually defenseless. Schools, malls, restaurants etc...

In other words, the place that we (prey) seem most vulnerable is in places where we are usually very comfortable.

I am on HIGH alert at almost anytime I'm in the Mall and I'm constantly scanning parking lots as we leave movie theaters.

I admit though that sometimes I get distracted and that bothers me. I try to stay vigilant and I pray that I will be watching when I need to.

Dan, I've gotten a bit off topic, but I think your point is well taken. Its important to keep your eyes open. Sure your family might think of you as a little paranoid, but paranoia can also simply be alertness misdiagnosed.

I've never heard of anyone getting hurt from keeping their eyes open.

Best regards,

Konrad
 

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Part of the problem is that you are still looking at the gun as a solution rather than a tool. If your home took kit only contains a hammer then your abilities are limited. I hear too many people say "what if he had a knife" in relation to their status of having a gun. Well what if he did? At close range a knife can kill you while you are trying to deploy a gun. People get locked up on the gun instead of getting into the fight.

If you think there is a threat, and your wife and kids are involved your first plan should be to exit.

And get over the "don't judge by appearances" mindset. If someone wants to look the part of a thug, there is a good chance he is willing to act the part of a thug.
 

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Some great previous post here.

I can relate to the park incident. My five year old granddaughter lives with us and is being raised by us. I take her to a nearby park almost daily. My head is on a swivel mount continuously. I will always avoid a confrontation in any way possible simply because the child is with me. Simply cannot put that child in danger no matter how much I think someone needs a good smack in the teeth. There have been a very few times when I grabbed the little one and left because my situational awareness sensors thought something didn't smell right.

My biggest problem at the park is the fact that I don't look like a "Sunday school teacher" and therefore don't blend in with the "other mothers" very well. More than once, I have been approached by a concerned mother that wanted to know what I was doing here. Each time, they were embarrassed and apologetic when I introduced them to my granddaughter. I just reassure them that I am not angry with their confronting me but am pleased that they they are watching for anything that looks out of place.

Jim
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
If your home took kit only contains a hammer then your abilities are limited. I hear too many people say "what if he had a knife" in relation to their status of having a gun. Well what if he did? At close range a knife can kill you while you are trying to deploy a gun. People get locked up on the gun instead of getting into the fight.
Excellent point. This is why I plan on carrying pepper spray and/or a stun gun in addition to a gun. I like having my options open.

And get over the "don't judge by appearances" mindset. If someone wants to look the part of a thug, there is a good chance he is willing to act the part of a thug.
:D If my wife read that someone had to advise me that it's OK to judge a book by its cover, she'd laugh. I'm the first person to walk into a room and point to someone and say "that's the bad guy." I'm just trying to become less judgemental. What's the quote? "I want to be the person my dog believes me to be."

But fear not...I won't have such an open mind that my brains fall out. I have no problem profiling when it comes to my family's safety. :)

Thanks for the replies folks.

Dan
 

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very good Post BTW

Now ask yourself going through the entire scenerio that you encountered,If you were in NY and you were having the same encounter how would you have re-acted what would have been going through your head?

Now of course you know why i refer to if you were in NY because there the thought of having a gun wouldn't have even come into mind cause if you were thier you wouldn;t be waiting on a license or a permit so you would have a totally different mindset.

So again i ask you how would you have handled it? had you been in a park in NYC?
What thoughts would have been passing through you mind?

we now know the gun or permit wont come into mind cause there it wouldn't exsist, and my point here is now that you are waiting for your license and you will be carrying gives it a whole new way of thinking and handling the situation. Ask yourself how would i have handled it if i were in a park in NY.
 

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Here is my perspective. Where ever I am, I am in code yellow and constantly looking around and checking things out. Not to a point of paranoia, Just being aware. If I am unfamiliar with my surroundings, I notice the entrance and exit points. I notice tattoos and other distinguishing feature on people.

There are alot of funny characters out there, most are harmless, some use common sense, others don't. It just them being them. As Al Lipscomb mentioned the gun is a tool and last resort one at best.

I was at a drug store yesterday and getting some medication. When I arrived to get on line to wait for an available pharmacist, there was a guy and his friend at the counter talking to a pharmacist. The guy was being very loud and was demanding oxycodine. I was checking out the guy and his friend for any indication that they may be armed. I don't have my concealed permit yet, and I was next in line to get my prescription. In any case, I tuned into that conversation and was checking the other people around me either shopping or on line waiting there turn to pick up their meds. The closest object I had near by was a folding metal chair that I probably would have used as a shield if the SHTF.

Gladly, the guy was told that another pharmacy has his medication and that they do not carry perscription narcotics at this location. The pharmacist apologized and called his order in for pick- up.

My first initial though was the this drugstore was in the process of getting robbed. 2 people at the counter, a person being loud demanding a narcotic drug.

Turns out that this guy was in a car accident a day ago and his doctor called in for a prescription to the wrong location to be filled for pain meds. The guy with him was his younger brother who drove him to the drugstore and was helping him walk.

If I was armed, I would have done the same thing. If the guy had a gun and left off one shot...well that would be a totally different scenario and ending...
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
So again i ask you how would you have handled it? had you been in a park in NYC?
What thoughts would have been passing through you mind?
.

This is another excellent point. the idea of having a gun would not have entered my mind in NY. However, the idea that someone else might have a gun is also less prevalent. Guns are pretty hard to come upon randomly up there. Sure I can find people with guns if I go where they are, but armed thugs would not be where I was going. This is something my wife and I have really come to realize since we moved to South Florida in the summer of 2004. In NY it is entirely possible to go to a park where none of what transpired yesterday would have occurred. Maybe it is because there is such a stark delineation between the "good neighborhoods" and the "bad neighborhoods". In NY (Queens, NYC is where I lived the first 35 yrs of my life) the odds of me running into that behavior at Crocheron Park in Bayside are just about nil. Those odds expand dramatically if I go to a park in on Liberty Blvd in Jamaica, Queens. But the odds of me going to Liberty Blvd in general are just about nil. :D Down here in Dade and Broward the neighborhoods are all mixed up. And I don't mean by race. There is plenty of racial and cultural diversity in Queens neighborhoods. I'm talking about crime, drugs, low-income housing projects, etc. Down here a high-end gated community can sit right next to a "project" community with a high crime rate. Hollywood is an excellent example. There are some wonderful areas of Hollywood, and some places you couldn't pay me to go to. Yesterday in the park, there were all sorts of people; white, black, hispanic, asian (south and east). And every group was represented positively and negatively. For example, my mother and her sister are immigrants from Ecuador. I am of Latin American descent. There are some folks who'd think I should be driving a low-rider instead of a mini van. :rolf I wasn't rough-housing or puuting any small kids in danger. But that first guy I had my eye on was a Latino as well. Turns out he was harmless, but we don't look dissimilar so one could generalize. Down here that happens all the time. In NY we'd probably be in two completely diffrent neigborhoods.

Regardless, you're right. I need to default to my lowest level of training and ability to plan how to handle a threat. that's a good way to star my planning.

Thanks.

Dan
 

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Hi all,
...But the whole thing got me thinking...What if I was armed?...
At the same time, the danger was real... This big kid could have been warned several yimes and still ended up hurting my son....
What if you had been armed? Would you have handled it any differently?

1. Pull your family out of harm's way. Best result is to see a situation and avoid it. You did that. A bit late IMO, but you did it.

2. Confronting the punks could have woke them up to the danger they were posing to the little kids or it could have easily escalated the situation with a bunch of them on you.... not good.

(only differnce I would have had would have been not to play in the water as I wouldn't want to get my holster and pistol wet.)
 

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What if you had been armed? Would you have handled it any differently?

1. Pull your family out of harm's way. Best result is to see a situation and avoid it. You did that. A bit late IMO, but you did it.

2. Confronting the punks could have woke them up to the danger they were posing to the little kids or it could have easily escalated the situation with a bunch of them on you.... not good.

(only differnce I would have had would have been not to play in the water as I wouldn't want to get my holster and pistol wet.)
Quite true, Airhead. I do understand Dan's reluctance, though, because he just wanted his family to have some fun. It's annoying to me that someone else could ruin my family's fun, but I would have probably done the same thing and just leave.

Dan, interesting, my parents are both from Ecuador themselves, but I was born in Texas. I thought I was the only one around these parts. ;)

And hey, I used to live semi-near Liberty Blvd in Queens (Euclid and Jamaica Ave, to be precise)! You're quite right about the parks there. :thumsup
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
What if you had been armed? Would you have handled it any differently?
That's what I mean. Would I have handled it differently as in wrongly? I think I handled it properly considering I was at best in a not-so-dangerous situation and wisely left it alone, or was at worst in a touchy situation that could have erupted and still came out of it with everyone healthy and happy. The best gunfight is the one that never happens, right? What I got worried about was that emotionally I found myself angry and concerned for my son's safety and I'm hoping that when I do eventually carry a gun that I'll be able to control those emotions and not go all macho.

1. Pull your family out of harm's way. Best result is to see a situation and avoid it. You did that. A bit late IMO, but you did it.
I would have liked to get out of there sooner as well, but then I'd have a fight with the wife on my hands. Talk about needing to bearmed. :rolf

2. Confronting the punks could have woke them up to the danger they were posing to the little kids or it could have easily escalated the situation with a bunch of them on you.... not good.

(only differnce I would have had would have been not to play in the water as I wouldn't want to get my holster and pistol wet.)
:D Yet another thing to think about.

Dan
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Timabl Wrote:
Dan, interesting, my parents are both from Ecuador themselves, but I was born in Texas. I thought I was the only one around these parts.

And hey, I used to live semi-near Liberty Blvd in Queens (Euclid and Jamaica Ave, to be precise)! You're quite right about the parks there.

Lol... you know what I'm talking about, then. :D

Dan
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I climb around on the playground apparatus with my daughter all the time.

-JT
Fair enough, but I'm going to assume the following.

a. You're not 4 years older than your daughter.

b. You are more than 17 years old and have a commensurate maturity level.

c. You would not douse yourself in water and then throw yourself down a plastic slide while three-year-olds are all around you.

d. You would not constantly use foul language and racial slurs peppered throughout your conversation with your daughter.

e. You would not spin-tackle your daughter into a water feature where small children were playing.

f. You would instruct your daughter that if another child was at the top of a slide, it's bad manners to climb over that child and jump down the slide simply because your [father] is chasing you up the plastic pirate ship while holding his pants up.

If I'm wrong about those assumptions, I apologize, but I'm quite certain I'd be happy to have you playing with your daughter while my son is nearby because you're a decent, thoughtful person, unlike the young man and his siblings who were there on Saturday.

(At least that's how you come across in your posts. :D Again, if you're neither decent nor thoughtful, I apologize. :rolf )

Dan
 

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Here's my take on the whole situation:

First of all, you demonstrated excellent situational awareness...your description of events indicates you would be a very good witness and would probably be the more believable party in any dispute.

From a legal standpoint, approaching the family and politely requesting that the members of their party exercise due care around the children's play area would not be an escalation; I wouldn't even consider it a confrontation. As a practical matter, however, it certainly could have incited them into confrontation mode, even though that would not have been a reasonable reaction on their part. So it's probably just as well that you didn't approach them.

Having said that, I refuse to be run off of a public place that my tax dollars paid for by a bunch of obnoxious drunks; I would have immediately summoned the authorities and had them run off (assuming that alcohol consumption in that particular park was illegal). I have just as much right to an enjoyable day with my family at a public park as anyone, and I will not cede that right to a bunch of lawless thug wannabe's.

As far as not judging a book by it's cover, that's a ridiculous axiom, IMO. Until you've read the book, the cover is the ONLY thing you have to judge it by. Anybody who intentionally mimicks the appearance of criminals will be assumed to be a criminal by me until proven otherwise...and then I'll just assume he's a moron. :laughing
 
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