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Nice article. So avg time of 1.77 seconds but this was with holsters with retention features? I'ma think times would be better with a Panther Concealment with the cant that Jim and Scott put on them. But then again, police officers would not be allowed this type holster for duty if I am not mistaken. 3% miss rate at 3 yards sounds better than the numbers I was taught a few years ago though. Always look forward to your posts my friend. Much knowledge have I gleaned from you over the years and much respect for you and your willingness to teach.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Nice article. So avg time of 1.77 seconds but this was with holsters with retention features? I'ma think times would be better with a Panther Concealment with the cant that Jim and Scott put on them. But then again, police officers would not be allowed this type holster for duty if I am not mistaken. 3% miss rate at 3 yards sounds better than the numbers I was taught a few years ago though. Always look forward to your posts my friend. Much knowledge have I gleaned from you over the years and much respect for you and your willingness to teach.
I'm sure that was from retention holsters, but the article didn't state one way or the other. My take is, leo's don't practice enough with retention holsters they wear because I've seen some bad hombre's who wear the uniform and have practiced their draw from retention holster be under 1.25 seconds. Meaning a 1/2 second reduction when it's practiced. 1/2 second is a lifetime when you're about to or are taking incoming.

Glad you found the article informative/enlightening. We'll see how these swat boys do this Thursday and Friday in Indianapolis
 

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How many, I wonder, actually know how long it takes them to draw and fire their first round and get a COM hit. I've timed enough people who thought they were fast enough who were absolutely geriatric in their response times.
 

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How many, I wonder, actually know how long it takes them to draw and fire their first round and get a COM hit. I've timed enough people who thought they were fast enough who were absolutely geriatric in their response times.
A few weeks ago I was at 0.95 seconds for the first shot fired “zero down.” Back when I was shooting more often (pre-covid) I was at 0.92 seconds.
 

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How many, I wonder, actually know how long it takes them to draw and fire their first round and get a COM hit. I've timed enough people who thought they were fast enough who were absolutely geriatric in their response times.
I'm one of those you timed more than once at VGHC who demonstrated better than geriatric times; Beep to 1st shot COM in just under 1 sec and a few tenths more to 2nd shot split, but that was well practiced and proficient drawing from my Panther vice a retention holster. Not sure what I could attain now but [hopefully] not too far off that mark. :unsure:
 

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How many, I wonder, actually know how long it takes them to draw and fire their first round and get a COM hit. I've timed enough people who thought they were fast enough who were absolutely geriatric in their response times.
Because it is not a "natural" skill, but one that needs constant practice. A skill that unfortunately, in my experience, many ranges do not allow for safety and liability reasons.

I practice with a snap cap.

Re. retention holsters:

70865
 

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How many, I wonder, actually know how long it takes them to draw and fire their first round and get a COM hit. I've timed enough people who thought they were fast enough who were absolutely geriatric in their response times.
People don't know what they don't know.

Practice makes perfect. No practice makes for not knowing what they don't know...
 

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Since I don’t have to open carry, I have no interest in retention holsters.

My times noted above were made using my Panther OWB. That's the same one y’all have seen me use at every training class, and is the one I used most of the time for both range work and carry.

The first thing I did upon receiving my “new” carry pistol (now two months old) was drive to Jacksonville and have the Panther boys make me that same model holster for the new gun.

There ain’t no need to mess with success!
 

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Admittedly, I read the first part of the article while eating breakfast and haven't finished as I'm off to work. But what hit me up front was the "21 foot rule" note , "... called it the '21 Foot Rule'. Mr. Tuller has stated himself that it is not a rule it was a drill. The Tuller's basic premise was that the 'average' officer could draw and fire one round in 1.5 seconds and the average person could travel 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. Tuller was contacted via email to confirm some of these details."

This rule was given to me, I believe, as a motivator to get proficient at 3 yards and to be cognizant of attackers distance when determining my response. However, this statement is a bit turned around as I think I should consider my draw-time-to-fire and adjust the distance to my ability. For example, if my proficient average was 2 seconds, then my response distance would be longer than 21 feet, perhaps as much as four yards ( considering my bad math).

That correction to the rule and it's creation has me looking at things a little differently.
 
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How many, I wonder, actually know how long it takes them to draw and fire their first round and get a COM hit. I've timed enough people who thought they were fast enough who were absolutely geriatric in their response times.
As I've run the timer on thousands of shooters, week after week and I do get to see a lot of guys who really thought they were "fast" until we show them the actual time to the first shot.

Lots of ex-coppers in the mix too.

Me? I'm not below one second and at this point I believe that's about as fast as I'm going to get in a timed event, but at least I realize what my speed/accuracy combination is and that is always factored into my surrounding scan.

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Admittedly, I read the first part of the article while eating breakfast and haven't finished as I'm off to work. But what hit me up front was the "21 foot rule" note , "... called it the '21 Foot Rule'. Mr. Tuller has stated himself that it is not a rule it was a drill. The Tuller's basic premise was that the 'average' officer could draw and fire one round in 1.5 seconds and the average person could travel 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. Tuller was contacted via email to confirm some of these details."

This rule was given to me, I believe, as a motivator to get proficient at 3 yards and to be cognizant of attackers distance when determining my response. However, this statement is a bit turned around as I think I should consider my draw-time-to-fire and adjust the distance to my ability. For example, if my proficient average was 2 seconds, then my response distance would be longer than 21 feet, perhaps as much as four yards ( considering my bad math).

That correction to the rule and it's creation has me looking at things a little differently.
I don't think that’s quite right Fred. I believe that the majority of regular LEOs could NOT draw and get a well placed shot off in 1.5 seconds.

Backpedaling while drawing and getting your shots off is a good alternative to create distance and time. That’s why regular practice at shooting while retreating is important.
 

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That technique was well-established by the Italian army in World War II.
🤣 And the French Army in WWI carrying pristine rifles, only dropped once!




I kid, I kid! 🤣
 

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Do you know why the Champs-Élysées is lines with trees? The German Army likes marching in the shade.
 

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Admittedly, I read the first part of the article while eating breakfast and haven't finished as I'm off to work. But what hit me up front was the "21 foot rule" note , "... called it the '21 Foot Rule'. Mr. Tuller has stated himself that it is not a rule it was a drill. The Tuller's basic premise was that the 'average' officer could draw and fire one round in 1.5 seconds and the average person could travel 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. Tuller was contacted via email to confirm some of these details."

This rule was given to me, I believe, as a motivator to get proficient at 3 yards and to be cognizant of attackers distance when determining my response. However, this statement is a bit turned around as I think I should consider my draw-time-to-fire and adjust the distance to my ability. For example, if my proficient average was 2 seconds, then my response distance would be longer than 21 feet, perhaps as much as four yards ( considering my bad math).

That correction to the rule and it's creation has me looking at things a little differently.
if anyone uses the tuller drill to improve their draw time they are missing the mark by a long margin...the tuller drill teaches, if anything, that a person should get off line instead of standing in dead mans shoes when being charged...i dont care how fast your draw is...youre gonna get run over by a man with holes in him if you dont move the f#@! out of the way...
 

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if anyone uses the tuller drill to improve their draw time they are missing the mark by a long margin...the tuller drill teaches, if anything, that a person should get off line instead of standing in dead mans shoes when being charged...i dont care how fast your draw is...youre gonna get run over by a man with holes in him if you dont move the f#@! out of the way...
How would that work?
 
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