[brownie]

You've got a 6" width window to take a hostage through a few innocents in front of him at 30 feet.

Can you thread that needle and make the shot? How confident are you that you could make that shot 100% of the time?

Have you ever tried to thread the needle between targets that only leave you that 6" window?

 

[brownie]

Sure, done it plenty of times...on the range.

As with all of these scenarios, there are too many variables to give a blanket yes or no answer to the question. What is the distance?

given

What's behind the hostage taker?

Doesn't matter if you can make the shot. LOL

Is he aware of my presence?

If he was, you wouldn't have that 6" window for long.

Am I carrying a mouse gun or a full size service pistol? And so on.

With the gun you normally carry on the streets. Could be an lcp, g17, NAA PUG if those are what you carry on the street.

 

[brownie]

I'm not confident I could make that shot. Closest thing to that I've ever done is shoot at a paper plate (perp's head) set behind two 2-liter bottles about 6-7" apart. That was at 7 yards. Very slow rate of fire, 6 rounds in 20 seconds. I hit the plate 6 for 6 and didn't hit the 2-liter bottles. 30ft with human heads? Not a chance I'd take the shot unless it was an immediate family member AND I was convinced they were about to die if I did not take that shot. Aside from that, I wouldn't have the confidence to take the shot.

5 head shots in 4.0 seconds from surrender position with a 1911 mil spec at 33 feet [ standard plate rack match distance. But head shots aren't just 6" laterally, they are 8-9". If I slow down just a little, of course threading the needle wouldn't ever be an issue.

One MUST have command of the basics to threat the needle. I finish every range session with 50-100 yrds shots on hub cap or top of a 5 gallon paint pail. This was always my way of making sure my basics were still solid

 

[brownie]

So lets amend the posts question.

Can you thread the needle at 30 feet and put a round into an area 6" laterally. Forget the hostage taker scenario's, shooting past two innocents.

Simply can you put a round into a target that's 6" wide [ the length of a US dollar bill ] at 30 feet reliably?

 

[brownie]

simply. Yes. With multiple different guns.
But, you said laterally. So are making that shot while moving left or right or standing still?

No, I meant laterally instead of vertically. The vertical could be 15-20", it's can you score inside that 6" lateral window.

I asked the question because at one of the Volusia courses, I set up two threats covering most of a 3rd target just behind the two that left students with a 6" window. The dismal performance of the basics was disheartening to say the least.

 

[brownie]

It's been my observation far too many people don't have command of the basics [ handhold, trigger control, sight alignment ] having been shooting for years.

 

[brownie]

I've always had an issue with sighted fire because I have a bit of a nervous shake that doesn't seem to be there when doing index shooting. When I go to the range, I usually do the following

Sighted fire strong side 7 yards
Sighted fire weak side 7 yards
Quick Kill strong side 7 yards
Quick Kill weak side 7 yards
Point shoulder/3/4 hip strong side (most of the ranges here make it hard to do half hip)
Point shoulder/3/4 hip weak side
Then a do a magazine strong and weak at 15 yards.

So I'll add a few smaller targets at 30 yards.

If you can make the shot at 30 feet, you have command of the basics Andy.

 

[brownie]

That I can do. 🤠

I knew that, I just wanted to see you post you can do that

 

[brownie]

In relation to a barn......is that the broad side or the small side...I can hit the broad side .....the small side sometimes, when I am lucky....EBL

Ya, I've got a bridge to sell here in Az too LOL

 

[brownie]

20 years ago, yes. Now, probably not but knowing that is half the battle. In my prior life, shooting a hostage taker in contact with a hostage was verboten and the purview of SOD Snipers.

By 93-94, entry teams were being trained to take the shot inside a structure. Snipers wouldn't have target acquisition

 

[brownie]

With a rifle, not with a handgun.

I wouldn't feel confident with a handgun at 30 feet, 18 feet or under is where I train.

Darn good question

I train at 15 yrds and in normally, but that last mag or two shooting at "distance" has always served me well when a precision shot needs to be taken [ as it verifies my basics are spot on ]. And if your basics are spot on, then threading the needle is really a duck walk

 

[brownie]

When you ask these kinds of question, I tend to go with my instincts. They have served me well over the years.

My initial instinct was to move closer using the innocents to block my targets view. It was not an option.

Lack of confidence will make one miss the easiest of shots.

The easiest person in the world to lie to is oneself, I haven't ever lied to myself when lives are on the line and shooting is involved. Mind you, risk management might mean I'll take the shot anyway, but at that point I'll live with what happens regardless of the outcome.

If my first instinct was to move closer because I'd not trained at longer than normal distances, I'd be out there shooting distances until I had to confidence to make the shot.

It all comes down to command of the basics. Gain that at longer than normal distances, you'll know what your capable of. Once you know what you're actually capable of, you only have to consider the circumstances [ whether it's make the shot or wait for a better opportunity.

 

[brownie]

No, too new, still working on my shooting low problem. But i do recollect a bunch of movies where shooter simply took both out, problem solved...

That's not an acceptable solution in the real world.

Shooting low? Lock your elbows. Stop pushing on the gun when you fire it.

 

[brownie]

I can make that shot 100-% of the time

It amazes me there's so many that can't, because they've never bothered to own the basics and have been shooting for, at times, decades.

 

[brownie]

For me, at least it was one of those you-don't-know-deals. I have had a fair number of them pointed out to in both force-on-force and real life scenarios over the years.

Basics are important, for sure, starting with an effective grip, which is something I've had to develop lately. The one(s) I have used worked well enough, right up until I needed a boost that previous approaches simply did not supply. Again, I didn't know what I didn't know. As it is, I'm trying to apply what I do know. Coming up on age 67, and I'm still learning new stuff.

I have two grips, one handed and two handed. Neither has changed in 50 years. As a young Marine recruit in 1969, we were given exemplary trigger skills. That training [ the trigger break ] has served me well shooting any firearm whether it's a rifle, shottie, or handgun.

Slight jerk on the trigger at 500 yrds, you miss. Slight jerk on the pistols trigger, you can't thread the needle well, if at all. Though I can use the sights as in a scenario of threading the needle, I find them to be crutches for normal SD distances [ they slow me down ]. But when sights are necessary for precision shots, that Marine training steps up to the plate, we're old friends at this.

But it does amaze me sometimes that people who've shot for a very long time still haven't mastered the basics.