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So Brownie ?? Why do they twist the knife ? I can only think it might be to release it from the wound and withdraw it ? Kevin
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
They trained coming from behind. Grab the head and twist. Insert knife at base of skull and cut brain stem.
Done any other way the body makes a lot of noise trying not to die.
Specific purpose. Specific design.
^This
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
So Brownie ?? Why do they twist the knife ? I can only think it might be to release it from the wound and withdraw it ? Kevin
You cut in, and cut out. One of these skills is called the comma cut. After stabbing, roll the wrist to the outside as you retract. More damage, less wasted energy in same time frame. Best used when stabbing into the abdomen, the "comma" part of the skill will disembowel.
 

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I carry a Kershaw Tanto Blur...and sometimes a Gerber double edge boot knife designed by Loveless. Those are both last ditch...if i have to go to those, I screwed up
 

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I've got to agree with Edgehill and Brownie here Mac. At this point in my skill level with edged weapons, that dagger is purely for offense and I'm just learning defensive skills and that is with a folder. Much has been geared toward disabling, hence slashes. In fact of the four basic cuts, three are slashes and only one is a stab. Now that stab would be with a reverse grip with the thumb on the butt of the knife or a forward, Filipino grip, with the thumb on the jimping of my Endura. Neither of the other basic grips, the fencing grip and hammer grip, lend themselves to a stab at my level of expertise. If I tried using one of them in a stab, I would likely find bone with the point and the probability would be that my hand would slip and I would cut my own fingers off--Yikes! The most likely stab I would be making would be with a reverse grip with the blade edge "up". Then the C section, comma as Brownie calls it, would be the probable next move or, if across the opponents body and he blocks the stab with his arm another option would be to still use that comma move but this time across the lower part of his bicep thus making that arm practically useless. So a lot of slashes in my training thus far, including pressure cuts which are still slashes and whether tendons in the arm, hamstrings or achilles tendons or even the femoral artery or carotid artery, they're still slashes. The stabs have been geared toward the abdomen, groin and, as Scouse said, the kidneys. And stabs should be very fast and as many multiple stabs in the same area as possible. I am sure as we progress there will be more in depth training on killing strokes and, eventually, getting into single stick and double stick Eskrima training. And eventually I want to move to a fixed blade, probably a street bowie like Edgehill and Rvrctyrngr (dang that's a long one to type out sir!) and then Some day to the big Bowies that Marine out in Arizona uses but by then they will probably be too heavy to lift.:grin
 

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Down stairs to perk Coffee, toast a few English Crumpets, the Grand Son is coming over to be looked after whilst Mummy takes his Sister for her first Dental visit, he 15 months, her 3.

Got to wash all the blood off the right hand! (In theory!)

Also get to contemplate those home invaders in the Florida news, who go into homes, where the residents are unarmed! Hope they saw the Flag proudly flying on my garage, next to the all night light!

Age has not diminished the fighting spirit of the denizens of Florida Carry!
 

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You cut in, and cut out. One of these skills is called the comma cut. After stabbing, roll the wrist to the outside as you retract. More damage, less wasted energy in same time frame. Best used when stabbing into the abdomen, the "comma" part of the skill will disembowel.
Thanks for the lesson ! I would think that move would be easier with a wider flatter grip than the knife pictured ? Easier to apply torque to the blade with wider handle ! At least it is true for filet knives ! Kevin
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
Thanks for the lesson ! I would think that move would be easier with a wider flatter grip than the knife pictured ? Easier to apply torque to the blade with wider handle ! At least it is true for filet knives ! Kevin
Agreed,

The handle doesn't have to be flatter, the kabars with their round grip would be just fine for torqueing. I prefer the slab sided handles myself over round, but round works if there's enough "grip" to the grip where it won't slip easily in the hand.

Blade manipulation drills are quite difficult the more round the grip becomes..
 

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I've got to agree with Edgehill and Brownie here Mac. At this point in my skill level with edged weapons, that dagger is purely for offense and I'm just learning defensive skills and that is with a folder. Much has been geared toward disabling, hence slashes. In fact of the four basic cuts, three are slashes and only one is a stab. Now that stab would be with a reverse grip with the thumb on the butt of the knife or a forward, Filipino grip, with the thumb on the jimping of my Endura. Neither of the other basic grips, the fencing grip and hammer grip, lend themselves to a stab at my level of expertise. If I tried using one of them in a stab, I would likely find bone with the point and the probability would be that my hand would slip and I would cut my own fingers off--Yikes! The most likely stab I would be making would be with a reverse grip with the blade edge "up". Then the C section, comma as Brownie calls it, would be the probable next move or, if across the opponents body and he blocks the stab with his arm another option would be to still use that comma move but this time across the lower part of his bicep thus making that arm practically useless. So a lot of slashes in my training thus far, including pressure cuts which are still slashes and whether tendons in the arm, hamstrings or achilles tendons or even the femoral artery or carotid artery, they're still slashes. The stabs have been geared toward the abdomen, groin and, as Scouse said, the kidneys. And stabs should be very fast and as many multiple stabs in the same area as possible. I am sure as we progress there will be more in depth training on killing strokes and, eventually, getting into single stick and double stick Eskrima training. And eventually I want to move to a fixed blade, probably a street bowie like Edgehill and Rvrctyrngr (dang that's a long one to type out sir!) and then Some day to the big Bowies that Marine out in Arizona uses but by then they will probably be too heavy to lift.:grin
Excellent post, sir...and Scott works just fine.
 

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Don't they have to live long enough to heal ? that type of knife is meant for puncture wounds ,as in to the base of the brain for instant kill ? If you want to twist something ,get a corkscrew ! Kevin
You are thinking of one of these:

Microtech Jagdkommando
Dagger Blade Knife Hunting knife Sword






*****

I think the conversation revolves around design versus utility. Sure, a dagger COULD be used as a defensive weapon, but that isn't really what it was made for.
Dagger is designed to pierce, and is pretty bad at slicing
Clip point is designed to slice, and will stab pretty well also.

Unless you're a ninja, a knife with a single-sided grind will have more utility than a double.
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
http://www.knifeart.com/bladgeomfaqb.html

- The Dagger

The dagger's format provides the ultimate in piercing soft targets. The format tapers to a very thin very sharp point, which pierces easily and deeply into soft targets, but is weak and can (and does) break on hard targets. The dagger usually has two sharp edges, to reduce the profile and let the knife cut in on both sides.

The dagger usually has little or no belly per se, instead tapering in relatively straight line towards the point, though you will see great variations in the degree to which there's a curve towards the point. In addition, both edges are ground from the exact center of the blade. The geometry, between the lack of belly and the quickly-thickening edges, is not good for slicing/slashing.
 

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Impossible Mac,
Two knives of equal weight as a blank, one with one grind, the other with dual grind, the dual grind has taken more material from midline of the blade to the edge on the second side.

Most infantry swords, up until the 18th century were double edge blades.

I'm sure you know the difference between a sword and a dagger.

the most effective strike, with a knife, is the stab. It produces damage deep into the large blood bearing organs, which slashes do not.

The most effective strike is the one you can make without taking one yourself. Whether that be a stab or slash will be up to the opponent.

The dagger doesn't have enough weight to slash as effectively as another single grind blade of same dimensions.
Actually, the finished weight of the blade can be the same in both the single edge and the double edge. You simply start with more steel to make the double edged blade.

I, of course, do know the difference between a sword and a dagger. However, the use of both is essentially the same. Except for a strike to the head, and some cases the neck, most sword slashes were used to weaken or disable an opponent, by breaking bones or causing cuts which would, over time, weaken an opponent through blood loss. All swords had sharp points to allow for penetration into interior organs, this included the most famous slashing weapon of all, the katana. And, the thrust was the preferred method of ending a fight, quickly. Fighting knives are no different in design, being designed primarily as a thrusting weapon, which can also be used to slash.

"The most effective strike is the one you can make without taking one yourself. Whether that be a stab or slash will be up to the opponent." - This is one of those simple homilies which ignores reality. The reality of any knife fight is that the longer your opponent has to continue attempting to harm you the greater the chance that he will succeed. The first thing to remember, in a knife on knife fight, is that you are probably going to take damage. The longer the fight progresses, the more damage you are going to endure.

It is true that the dagger usually isn't as efficient at slashing as a is a clip point or other knife having a "belly". However, that is why the draw stroke was invented, to increase the cutting potential of a blade having a straight or tapered blade edge.
 

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They trained coming from behind. Grab the head and twist. Insert knife at base of skull and cut brain stem.
Done any other way the body makes a lot of noise trying not to die.
Specific purpose. Specific design.
The preferred method of using the F/S knife was to approach from behind, cover the and nose and thrust into the kidneys, twist and remove and thrust again. This stifled any outcry and the shock of striking the kidney often temporarily paralyzed the target. The second most common method was the thrust into the side of the neck and push forward and out. This penetrated the heavy muscles on the side of the neck and severed the carotid artery and jugular vein causing extremely rapid unconsciousness due to lowered blood pressure. The thrust to the rear of the neck was sometimes used, but it was accomplished by thrusting the point of the blade into the cranial cavity at an upward angle and wiggling it back and forth to destroy the medula. It was tricky, though, as covering the mouth often tilted the head backward which made it difficult to insert the knife.
 

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Impossible Mac,
Two knives of equal weight as a blank, one with one grind, the other with dual grind, the dual grind has taken more material from midline of the blade to the edge on the second side.

Most infantry swords, up until the 18th century were double edge blades.

I'm sure you know the difference between a sword and a dagger.

the most effective strike, with a knife, is the stab. It produces damage deep into the large blood bearing organs, which slashes do not.

The most effective strike is the one you can make without taking one yourself. Whether that be a stab or slash will be up to the opponent.

The dagger doesn't have enough weight to slash as effectively as another single grind blade of same dimensions.
Actually, the finished weight of the blade is can be the same in both the single edge and the double edge. You simply start with more steel to make the double edged blade.

I, of course, do know the difference between a sword and a dagger. However, the use of both is essentially the same. Except for a strike to the head, and some cases the neck, most sword slashes were used to weaken or disable an opponent, by breaking bones or causing cuts which would weaken an opponent through blood loss. All swords had sharp points to allow for penetration into interior organs, this included the most famous slashing weapon of all the katana. And, the thrust was the preferrerd method of ending a fight, quickly. Knives are no different in design, being designed primarily as a thrusting weapon, which can also be used to slash.

"The most effective strike is the one you can make without taking one yourself. Whether that be a stab or slash will be up to the opponent." - This one of those simple homilies which ignores reality. The reality of any knife fight is that the longer your opponent has to continue attempting to harm you the greater the chance that he will succeed. The first thing to remember, in a knife on knife fight, is that you are probably going to take damage. The longer the fight progresses, the more damage you are going to endure.

It is true that the dagger usually isn't as efficient at slashing as a is a clip point or other knife having a "belly". However, that is why the draw stroke was invented, to increase the cutting potential of a blade having a straight or tapered blade edge.
 

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The preferred method of using the F/S knife was to approach from behind, cover the and nose and thrust into the kidneys, twist and remove and thrust again. This stifled any outcry and the shock of striking the kidney often temporarily paralyzed the target. The second most common method was the thrust into the side of the neck and push forward and out. This penetrated the heavy muscles on the side of the neck and severed the carotid artery and jugular vein causing extremely rapid unconsciousness due to lowered blood pressure. The thrust to the rear of the neck was sometimes used, but it was accomplished by thrusting the point of the blade into the cranial cavity at an upward angle and wiggling it back and forth to destroy the medula. It was tricky, though, as covering the mouth often tilted the head backward which made it difficult to insert the knife.
Actually that isn't quite correct Mac. I actually took this course through Rex Applegate and it was meant to be a complete knife fighting weapon that would help in all CQB situations. Including slashing, stabbing and cutting I direct you to F/S Knife Fighting in Chapter 5 of the Kill or Get Killed manual attached. mainly pages 85-101.

http://worldtracker.org/media/libra...Kill or Get Killed (1943) - Rex Applegate.pdf
 

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Actually that isn't quite correct Mac. I actually took this course through Rex Applegate and it was meant to be a complete knife fighting weapon that would help in all CQB situations. Including slashing, stabbing and cutting I direct you to F/S Knife Fighting in Chapter 5 of the Kill or Get Killed manual attached. mainly pages 85-101.

http://worldtracker.org/media/libra...Kill or Get Killed (1943) - Rex Applegate.pdf
I was commenting on the Tominator's post, which was strictly addressing an attack from behind. In Kill Or Get Killed, Applegate only describes one method of attack from the rear, the kidney stab, followed by the transverse throat slash. Operators of the OSS and the Special Commando developed tactics that worked better for them in the field. And, depending upon the circumstances, thrust and forward throat slashes or cranial penetrations were also used. When defending or attacking a target from the front, then different tactics and target areas were employed.
 

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I've seen the results of a couple knife fights. I'm hoping I'm the one who brought a gun to a knife fight.
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
I've seen the results of a couple knife fights. I'm hoping I'm the one who brought a gun to a knife fight.
Studying crime scene and morgue photos of blade attacks, the wounds are nearly always horrific. Involved in one investigation I remember well, the husband thought his wife was messing around with her coworker and one night while she slept, he attacked her with a butcher knife from the kitchen. Over 50 stab wounds to her torso [ back mostly ], head and legs. At least 1/3 of the wounds were to her pelvic region [ obvious why when you knew the back story ].
 

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I had the pleasure of getting between a husband and wife argument in a Sub Shop in Baltimore. I was a teen at the time. The husband reached over the counter, grabbed a butcher knife and turned on the wife telling her he was going to kill her. I didn't have a gun nor military training yet, jumped in to the fray so to speak. Still have the scars to prove it. Disarmed him by grabbing the knife after he took a big swipe at me. Took him through the plate glass window in the front of the shop. 40 stitches later they had the bleeding under control.....Knife blade buried into the palm, top of the thumb almost removed. He on the other hand had broken bones and needed his eye put back into the socket....On his way to jail.



Did I mention I hate knife fights when I am not the only one holding one.....
 
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