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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
There are several possible angles of attack from a knife. All of these possible angles from a knife originate from linear [ straight ] lines.

If one attempts to block these attacks of the straight line, the linear angle and power can overcome the defensive blocking types and push through [ continue ] on through to their intended target.

Overhand attacks [ reverse grip ice pick types ] are the most powerful linear attack for most people and hard to stop with any type of blocking action. As such, women are more apt to naturally go to this type of attack as people just instinctually understand the force [ power ] generated by them.

Slashes; stabs and overhand [ ice pick types ] of attacks are all delivered in linear lines of motion. These three lines of attack are the ones we'll see used against us, perhaps in varying forms of combinations if the assailant is knowledgeable enough.

By attempting to get either forearm up to block the knife from getting into our core [ from reaching our body ] we give the assailant a closer target to cut or stab at. Accordingly, this is not going to be the best defense to use.

If the assailant is versed in the ways of the blade, he'll readily take advantage of the opportunity we give him in attempting to block his attack, hoping that we extend the arm in an attempt to block the knife.

When we attempt to block, we are attempting to stop the attack. If one has had any worthwhile defensive knife training, he/she knows that deflecting the attack is better than trying to stop the attack by blocking.

Enter, the "secret of circles". One needs to know how to deflect using circling motions close to the body and not extend outward with the foream or hand. In concert with deflecting the blade it's also wise to know how to move the body off the line of attack and get out of the strike zone in the event the defensive actions are not successful.

What most people fail to realize is that circling motions defeat the most powerful of linear motion. The power of the linear attack is not overcome but deflected away while moving the body off it's previous center. Moving ones body off it's present center line can be as simple as swiveling the hips and shoulders as well as in concert with moving the feet if time and distance permit us to do so.

Six basic circling motions with the hands and/or forearms can give us a very good defense against the three linear lines of attack from the knife [ slash, stab and overhand ].

Learning The Secret of Circles and these six counters is crucial to minimizing or negating the damage we can suffer from a linear knife attack.

My suggestion is to learn The Secret of Circles, protect the core at all times and take the assailants linear power away from him. This thread also connects some dots with the ideas put forth in another thread titled "The Collapsing Startle Response" © TM

Brownie
 

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Remember the Karate Kid..... "Wax-on.... Wax-off"
 

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After being a student of Aikido/Aikijustsu for so many years the art/study of the circle is close to my heart and one which I studied intently. The innermost study of the circular motion is to develop techniques from the center of the circle. Regardless of the ways the opponent attacks, linear or angular, a circular motion centered at your lower abdomen or center of gravity will naturally blend with the attack so that you can execute a controlling technique with efficiency. The centripetal force will draw the opponent into your range of effectiveness so that the centrifugal force can eject him effectively.
 

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After being a student of Aikido/Aikijustsu for so many years the art/study of the circle is close to my heart and one which I studied intently. The innermost study of the circular motion is to develop techniques from the center of the circle. Regardless of the ways the opponent attacks, linear or angular, a circular motion centered at your lower abdomen or center of gravity will naturally blend with the attack so that you can execute a controlling technique with efficiency. The centripetal force will draw the opponent into your range of effectiveness so that the centrifugal force can eject him effectively.
Damn had to look that one up!
 

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In the FMA as I've learned them, we generally do not try to block or stop a knife attack with direct force, but instead learn to redirect it. There are oodles of reasons for this that I'm too lazy to type. I will say that a person trained to use a knife will likely know how to use any force given to him, such as a hard block, against you.

Traditional FMA doesn't tend to get too much into exhaustively categorizing and grouping techniques and principles, but there are several ways to do this. To go with the flow of the thread, one method would be palisut, which I've seen defined as "to scoop". The linear angle is intercepted by a circular, hooking motion of the defender. Combined with proper footwork/body angling/zoning, the target is taken off line as the attack is received and redirected by whatever palisut technique is used. After the blade has been placed on a less threatening path, you "thank" your attacker for the buffet of pain he has offered to you.

I always refer to the body positioning as zoning or getting off the line. I think "getting off the X" is an inaccurate term. You are the X. The attacker will just adjust to the new position of the X.

-JT
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
one method would be palisut, which I've seen defined as "to scoop".

Ah, Palisut, :thumsup very good skills sets. I've heard it called by names like the cats claw and the scoop, very effective with footwork, very deceptive and quick to move the attacking hand/arm off line.

Worked unarmed and/or with a blade/yawara stick/rolled newpaper/whatever it is very effective at passing the opponents blade/weapon and then delivering, as you say, the thank you for his efforts:rolf

Good stuff, and very good concepts of circling/circles used to defend sir

Brownie
 

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You know us FMA guys...we likes our blades :D

One thing that's obvious and yet not obvious to people unfamiliar with bladework: it requires very little strength. If the blade has any kind of edge on it, the edge does all the work. It's not necessary to get a rooted stance, or cock that arm back for the haymaker. Light pressure, a little lateral movement along the blade's long axis, and there's a cut.

I explain it like this: if I'm trying to counter with my fists as I'm being pressed back, I'll likely be ineffective, as I can't get a good stance to gain adequate leverage for a good empty-hand strike. With a blade, all I gotta do is put it in the path of incoming strikes. Sir Isaac Newton will handle the rest.

Not that continually backing up is a viable tactic. Even most cripples can move forward faster than you can move backward. You'll eventually lose, and there's no second place for that race. Just illustrating the point.

-JT

P.S. - Ray once said something along the lines of there not being much to knife fighting. Just stick the pointy end in the other guy :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
If the blade has any kind of edge on it, the edge does all the work.

I've actually found through testing on pork roasts that the edge tends to roll if the blade isn't "scary" sharp [ as they say in the biz ]. The rolling will produce a much shallower cut which is not something I want. ALL my blades are scary sharp, in fact many people who carry a knife and think their edge is sharp enough are surprised what a real scary sharp edge actually is and can do.

Ray once said something along the lines of there not being much to knife fighting. Just stick the pointy end in the other guy

He mentions that very thing in one of his tapes I have as well.

Brownie
 

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True...maybe saying the blade does all the work was inaccurate. However, it doesn't require as much strength as beginners put into it. But, admittedly, I like my blades scary sharp as well, and tend to assume most folks would, too.

I remember the light going off in my head when Ray showed how a knife inserted into a person becomes a handle to control the person.

And Ray's quote brings to mind one from Bruce Lee: "Take things as they are. Punch when you have to punch. Kick when you have to kick."

It's never quite as simple as that, though.

Unless you're Ray.

Or Bruce Lee.

-JT
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
I remember the light going off in my head when Ray showed how a knife inserted into a person becomes a handle to control the person.

Insert it just under the sternum and pick them up on their toes, they'll follow you anywhere after that. Keating showed us some "pointing" skills with a long blade that were superb at this sort of thing, coming over the top as you use an "In Quarata" fencing technique and moving them around in a circle with the tip of the blade as well.:rolf

This exchange between us has been very nice, one that understands the nuances of the blade is quite refreshing.

Thanks for that sir.

Brownie
 

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Right back at you, brownie. It's nice to talk about bladework on a guncentric forum. Also, writing/talking about it helps me to think about things in different ways, which helps with the folks I train. Well, folk, right now.

Anyone who carries a gun for defense, whether as a citizen or part of the job, needs to learn how to deal with a blade. So many people think "I'll just draw my gun and shoot the guy". Depending on the range, that isn't always the case at all. Tueller talked about it in his article 25 years ago, and it was demonstrated in a video born from that article and in the "Surviving Edged Weapons" training video, and other training videos and programs that followed.

If there's an insufficient reactionary gap, you've gotta deal with that sharp hunk of steel coming at you first, before you can try fumbling with your gun and holster under stress. Then, after the attacker has kindly paid you with a knife, give him a couple of jacketed rounds in change.

-JT
 

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haven't heard the phrase "secret of circles" since taking your class. Many things are now coming back. Thanks for the memory kick-start!
 

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Good thread to review, brownie! Thanks for the BTTT! (y) (y)
 
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After being a student of Aikido/Aikijustsu for so many years the art/study of the circle is close to my heart and one which I studied intently. The innermost study of the circular motion is to develop techniques from the center of the circle. Regardless of the ways the opponent attacks, linear or angular, a circular motion centered at your lower abdomen or center of gravity will naturally blend with the attack so that you can execute a controlling technique with efficiency. The centripetal force will draw the opponent into your range of effectiveness so that the centrifugal force can eject him effectively.
Brownie, At our last class a few weeks ago, you and I had a nice long talk after dinner. One of the things we discussed was this concept and I told you that from my Aikido days we incorporated blending and circles in almost every thing we did as a way of getting off line and redirecting the person’s attack.

SwampRat is spot on here.

Great discussion sir! (y)
 
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