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The scoop draw you taught me is my go to draw-stroke, practiced hundreds of times a week with a Laserlyte cartridge for dryfire practice around the house! 馃 I'm so grateful to know now what I didn't know then! ;)
 

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The mind is the limiting factor...
 

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BTTT for new members. I was just contacted by another member/student of mine who was arguing on another forum where uninformed supposed intelligent and trained people were arguing against the one handed draw stroke. He showed them the scoop draw video of mine and said all he heard was "crickets" from those who didn't know what they didn't know and the argument from those uninformed ceased.

One of the main reasons for starting the channel to begin with, to prove to those who don't know what they don't know that what they believe isn't possibly reliable enough to use actually is. :eek:
Crickets it was. It was an AIWB thread. Somebody posted an obvious pro-AIWB video in the thread and I started the ruckus by simply saying the man in video couldn't draw without using both hands and you never know when you may need one free while you鈥檙e drawing with the other. I got double crickets when one mr smarty pants asked me if a bad guy had my strong arm how was I gonna draw my gun? He could when carrying AIWB!!!. When my response was that yes I could draw owb with my weak hand by reaching around behind me as well as actually immediately gaining the correct grip on the gun unlike what would be a backward weak hand draw from AIWB he went radio silent 馃槵
 

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Sir,
You referenced the scoop draw in another thread. I hadn't had the opportunity to watch the video nor had I seen it live.

I originally learned to draw from either OWB waste or upper outer thigh, both SHS.

When I transitioned to civilian and got my CCW, I went to a class to learn how to draw from concealed. What the gentlemen taught made no practical sense. Carry behind the waste (lots ofwasted hand back and forth), and a whole heck of a lot of up, down, up.

I went to a forward of the waste OWB carry, roughly at the belt where my hands hang naturally. I hook thumb and grab the gun on the way up. I practice draw before I leave the house and work it until I get three successful draws. Depending on what I'm wearing, the 'hook' changes.

It does tend to 'print'.

I'll have to work that transition you show from fingers to thumb. It looks much smother than thumb hook.

Thank you.
 

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Sir,
You referenced the scoop draw in another thread. I hadn't had the opportunity to watch the video nor had I seen it live.

I originally learned to draw from either OWB waste or upper outer thigh, both SHS.

When I transitioned to civilian and got my CCW, I went to a class to learn how to draw from concealed. What the gentlemen taught made no practical sense. Carry behind the waste (lots ofwasted hand back and forth), and a whole heck of a lot of up, down, up.

I went to a forward of the waste OWB carry, roughly at the belt where my hands hang naturally. I hook thumb and grab the gun on the way up. I practice draw before I leave the house and work it until I get three successful draws. Depending on what I'm wearing, the 'hook' changes.

It does tend to 'print'.

I'll have to work that transition you show from fingers to thumb. It looks much smother than thumb hook.

Thank you.
You've seen it, since that's the way I draw.
 

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You've seen it, since that's the way I draw.
Yup and not just you. Many of us do and did at the last TFP course in November. 馃
 

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I learned and utilized the scoop draw for several years prior to physical changes necessitated moving my setup from 3:00 to 11:30. It's not really doable for me at 11:30, but I still advocate it for those who carry strong side. Easy to learn and practice, and quick.
 

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Yup and not just you. Many of us do and did at the last TFP course in November. 馃
Calimwulf just made the point that he didn't see it from concealed, which is correct. I didn't shoot from concealed at the last class.
 
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Calimwulf just made the point that he didn't see it from concealed, which is correct. I didn't shoot from concealed at the last class.
Yup, and meant no disrespect to Calimwulf. I use the same motion regardless of cover garment or not, but yeah, it's not as obvious when one is not drawing from cover.
 

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I'm not thin skinned folks.

If we are ever in a class together again, I'd appreciate seeing it. I was in classes with exbluelight and brownie and everyone was drawing straight OWB. It's one of those details I pay attention to :)

The video does show the transition though.
 

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Oh, and the issue I have with my thumb scoop is that depending on what I'm wearing, I have 'extra' lateral movement. Under a jacket, I can get to half hip smooth and fast by just tucking my elbow. If I didn't live in Florida, I'd always wear a light jacket and avoid the entire problem.
 

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I'm not thin skinned folks.

If we are ever in a class together again, I'd appreciate seeing it. I was in classes with exbluelight and brownie and everyone was drawing straight OWB. It's one of those details I pay attention to :)

The video does show the transition though.
I've been to lots of advanced training classes around the country, including Brownie's in Florida. Students working from concealment have been a rarity in all of them. Brownie's are the only ones in which I worked from open carry. The reason for that is simple, literally hundreds of draw strokes, all day long, in the Florida heat. My skin simply isn't up to that many presentations from concealment.
 
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Discussion Starter · #76 ·
I've been to lots of advanced training classes around the country, including Brownie's in Florida. Students working from concealment have been a rarity in all of them. Brownie's are the only ones in which I worked from open carry. The reason for that is simple, literally hundreds of draw strokes, all day long, in the Florida heat. My skin simply isn't up to that many presentations from concealment.
The course is designed to impart shooting skills, not how to draw the firearm to utilize those skills. I didn't always demonstrate the scoop draw in every course.

It's no different than people who pocket carry but need an owb strong side for the course. Demonstrating the scoop draw and letting students then work with it when drawing has always simply been a side benefit some classes were given. Only started demo'ing the scoop draw after one of the students read about it here and wanted to learn how to utilize that skill.

Calimwulf, when I draw from open carry, it's still scoop draw as I'm scooping the gun out of the holster as the hand goes by it. It remains like you're reaching out to shake someone's hand starting with arms at your side/at rest. One continuous motion to muzzle on threat. Think of it like a semi circle motion, not a 1, 2 motion to change the initial vertical lift to horizontal.

Bill Jordan drew from an open carried holster in the same manner [ scooping the gun as the hand passed the grip ]. One fluid motion to on threat. No hand/palm placed down on guns back strap, grab the grip and lift out which requires the hand to go above the grip to then drop down onto it before lifting gun up and out/.

If you're seating the hand onto the grip, you're not scooping the gun up and out as the hand goes by. Which is how I draw at all times, take out on the way by when the hand starts below the grip of the pistol. Even when I shot in matches and started from surrender position, the hand made a circling motion to the grip, not like most who place the palm on the grip, then start to lift the gun out [ and I've been told that's required to affect a reliable purchase on the firearm by what many would consider expert instructors otherwise.

There's much to learn from the old masters who survived battles in the field against dangerous hombre's trying to kill them. It might be beneficial to read more on Jelly Bruce, Bill Jordan and Col. Askins. The epitome of modern day gunfighters, as opposed to the late 1800's.
 

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The course is designed to impart shooting skills, not how to draw the firearm to utilize those skills. I didn't always demonstrate the scoop draw in every course.

It's no different than people who pocket carry but need an owb strong side for the course. Demonstrating the scoop draw and letting students then work with it when drawing has always simply been a side benefit some classes were given. Only started demo'ing the scoop draw after one of the students read about it here and wanted to learn how to utilize that skill.

Calimwulf, when I draw from open carry, it's still scoop draw as I'm scooping the gun out of the holster as the hand goes by it. It remains like you're reaching out to shake someone's hand starting with arms at your side/at rest. One continuous motion to muzzle on threat. Think of it like a semi circle motion, not a 1, 2 motion to change the initial vertical lift to horizontal.

Bill Jordan drew from an open carried holster in the same manner [ scooping the gun as the hand passed the grip ]. One fluid motion to on threat. No hand/palm placed down on guns back strap, grab the grip and lift out which requires the hand to go above the grip to then drop down onto it before lifting gun up and out/.

If you're seating the hand onto the grip, you're not scooping the gun up and out as the hand goes by. Which is how I draw at all times, take out on the way by when the hand starts below the grip of the pistol. Even when I shot in matches and started from surrender position, the hand made a circling motion to the grip, not like most who place the palm on the grip, then start to lift the gun out [ and I've been told that's required to affect a reliable purchase on the firearm by what many would consider expert instructors otherwise.

There's much to learn from the old masters who survived battles in the field against dangerous hombre's trying to kill them. It might be beneficial to read more on Jelly Bruce, Bill Jordan and Col. Askins. The epitome of modern day gunfighters, as opposed to the late 1800's.
You talked to me about drawing from open carry before I took my Florida class with you in 2015. You stated, correctly that working from concealment for two days would detract from that which you were teaching in the class. I bought a couple OWB holsters especially for that class.

I agree totally with looking at modern day gunfighters rather than the slow is smooth stuff. Single-action black-powder smoke pots require their own sets of shooting skills, and provide little upon which to base modern gunfighting philosophy. JMO, of course.
 

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Discussion Starter · #78 ·
Oh, and the issue I have with my thumb scoop is that depending on what I'm wearing, I have 'extra' lateral movement. Under a jacket, I can get to half hip smooth and fast by just tucking my elbow. If I didn't live in Florida, I'd always wear a light jacket and avoid the entire problem.
Sir, in an attempt to demonstrate that which I've tried to explain about scooping the gun out of the holster when the hand passes over the grip, perhaps this demonstration, taken in context will better help understand that from an open carried holster like we used in the Nov class, I was still scooping the gun up and out with my fingers as they passed the butt.

Now, imagine my hand has started at my side in this video, and it captures the position my hand is in when the fingers are about to scoop the gun out of the holster as it's on it's arc to muzzle on threat. This exercise was to establish pure muscle speed to shot, without the lag time of moving to the gun. First time I'd been timed, back around 06-07.

My hand is NOT touching the gun. Notice my fingers have curled to be able to scoop the gun up and out. No downward force to the back strap then lifting, that's actually a waste of time. I've had people state, ya, and if you don't get a good purchase on the gun before you attempt to draw, you can fumble it/drop it, blah blah blah. That's their "theoretical" to our actual results on the line by dozens of students drawing hundreds of times a day with speed and not one instance of someone throwing their gun as they hadn't got a purchase on it by scooping it up and out.

People have asked me when my trigger finger enters the trigger guard on that draw stroke. Breaking it down in slow motion in the editor shows trigger finger enters guard when the muzzle is approximately 8-10 inches in front of my toes. There's a lot of proprioception going on there to be sure.

 

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Sir, in an attempt to demonstrate that which I've tried to explain about scooping the gun out of the holster when the hand passes over the grip, perhaps this demonstration, taken in context will better help understand that from an open carried holster like we used in the Nov class, I was still scooping the gun up and out with my fingers as they passed the butt.

Now, imagine my hand has started at my side in this video, and it captures the position my hand is in when the fingers are about to scoop the gun out of the holster as it's on it's arc to muzzle on threat. This exercise was to establish pure muscle speed to shot, without the lag time of moving to the gun. First time I'd been timed, back around 06-07.

My hand is NOT touching the gun. Notice my fingers have curled to be able to scoop the gun up and out. No downward force to the back strap then lifting, that's actually a waste of time. I've had people state, ya, and if you don't get a good purchase on the gun before you attempt to draw, you can fumble it/drop it, blah blah blah. That's their "theoretical" to our actual results on the line by dozens of students drawing hundreds of times a day with speed and not one instance of someone throwing their gun as they hadn't got a purchase on it by scooping it up and out.

People have asked me when my trigger finger enters the trigger guard on that draw stroke. Breaking it down in slow motion in the editor shows trigger finger enters guard when the muzzle is approximately 8-10 inches in front of my toes. There's a lot of proprioception going on there to be sure.

Please don't call me 'sir', I work for a living. I can call you 'sir' because not only do I respect my elders, I have also learned to recognize my betters :) Darned if I remember the movie that came from.

You're tilting the body, so you do not have to bring the gun up as far to shoot 'straight'. The more upper body pivot, the higher you can shoot, including headshots.. Absolutely amazing. I need to watch the video a few more times, because your draw is effortless.

I know for a fact your more 'twitchy' than I, but I won't use that as an excuse. Thank you again, sir.
 
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