[LeJaeger]

And I don't need a phallic symbol hanging off my waist because I have a real phallus that speaks for itself....

I wish I had a talking phallus :dancingbanana ...no, not really.

And who gets to carry .50 Action Express? Agent Smith...Badass

Instant death is good incapacitation, tho. If I can get a .45 on target, I'll get a 9mm on target better. Catastrophic blood pressure drop or nerve damage should be all you need.

 

[MPDC66]

I thought the most telling, albiet anecdotal, story about "killing" calibers was the one Brownie posted about the Coroner's opinion that larger calibers were more destructive BUT admitted it was just an impression and those shot with 9MMs were "just as dead" (I paraphrase).opcorn

 

[Misty02]

Interesting reading; thanks for sharing Straight Shooter. :wave

 

[Standby]

1. Its not that complicated....put as many rounds .22 - 44mag on target with (COM being you POA), as quickly as possible until the fight is over.....

2. Brits STILL train 2 X COM and if no result move to head shots...

3. I guess I went through a sex change without knowing it!, as I have carried and continue to carry a 9mm for most of my life. POI and tactics always out ways size of projectile.

4. Nice article though, even with some of the miss-information.

5. My 3 rules for a gunfight:
Have a gun that works.
Cheat.
Win.

 

[brownie]

1. Its not that complicated....put as many rounds .22 - 44mag on target with (COM being you POA), as quickly as possible until the fight is over.....

2. Brits STILL train 2 X COM and if no result move to head shots...

3. I guess I went through a sex change without knowing it!, as I have carried and continue to carry a 9mm for most of my life. POI and tactics always out ways size of projectile.

4. Nice article though, even with some of miss-information.

5. My 3 rules or a gunfight:
Have a gun that works.
Cheat.
Win.

I must have gone to the same doctor you did Will :drinks

 

[usfslacker]

interesting read :thumsup

 

[new to south fl]

Center Mass

Interested in getting feedback from those who have actually been in a firefight.

http://forums.gunsamerica.com/yaf_postst14_The-Center-Mass-Myth-and-Ending-a-Gunfight.aspx?c=0301

 

[Grizz]

Look at this thread, already been posted and discussion started, chime in there bro. http://floridaconcealedcarry.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=10158&highlight=Center+mass

 

[new to south fl]

Look at this thread, already been posted and discussion started, chime in there bro. http://floridaconcealedcarry.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=10158&highlight=Center+mass

Thanks

 

[new to south fl]

I'd tend to agree with the majority of his assessments, but several points are clearly misspoken based on historic records as well.

Bold: Please elaborate.

 

[MeanDoggy41]

Interesting and curious read.

 

[Jedburgh]

There are 4 factors to a projectile (bullet) wound. They are Penetration, Permanent Cavity, Temporary Cavity, and Fragmentation.

Because of the speed of handgun ammunition, only penetration and permanent cavity are a factor. Pistol rounds move too slowly to achieve consistent fragmentation or to cause damage through the temporary wound cavity.

In order to achieve incapacitation, the central nervous system (CNS) must be destroyed. The CNS is the brain and upper spinal column. In order to destroy the CNS, a projectile must pass through the area (not just reach it). Hits to the heart-even multiple hits-will not quickly incapacitate your attacker. Even if the heart is severely damaged, your attacker will have approximately 15 seconds of full voluntary function before bleeding out.

The bottom line is that you want a defensive round that will penetrate 12-18 inches. The bigger the permanent wound cavity the better. Determining how much better a .45 is than a 9mm is extremely difficult and subjective. As long as the penetration is there, the only thing that matters is placement.

I wrote a paper on this awhile back with more detail about the factors of wounding, etc. You can download it if you're interested:here.

DOL

 

[mandarin]

Yes, this article has been around various gun boards for comment.

One problem I have with it is that the entire premise of the article is a strawman. Nobody has ever (that I'm aware of) suggested that a hit to the center of mass is a "man-stopper" shot or a guaranteed kill, etc.

The reason we train to hit center of mass is that the BG is probably very close and charging at you. He's bobbing, weaving, and police reports indicate that if you draw your gun and fire, your chances of getting a hit are around 20 percent, based on statistical average.

So you fire at center of mass because that's your best shot of scoring a hit. It's unwise to aim for legs or groin or head as a primary target because you're probably only going to have 2 or 3 seconds to make the shot and you're probably going to miss unless you have lots of practice shooting under adrenaline.

Basically, you're hoping to just score a hit, period, anywhere and then see what happens.

 

[brownie]

There are 4 factors to a projectile (bullet) wound. They are Penetration, Permanent Cavity, Temporary Cavity, and Fragmentation.

Because of the speed of handgun ammunition, only penetration and permanent cavity are a factor. Pistol rounds move too slowly to achieve consistent fragmentation or to cause damage through the temporary wound cavity.

In order to achieve incapacitation, the central nervous system (CNS) must be destroyed. The CNS is the brain and upper spinal column. In order to destroy the CNS, a projectile must pass through the area (not just reach it). Hits to the heart-even multiple hits-will not quickly incapacitate your attacker. Even if the heart is severely damaged, your attacker will have approximately 15 seconds of full voluntary function before bleeding out.

The bottom line is that you want a defensive round that will penetrate 12-18 inches. The bigger the permanent wound cavity the better. Determining how much better a .45 is than a 9mm is extremely difficult and subjective. As long as the penetration is there, the only thing that matters is placement.

I wrote a paper on this awhile back with more detail about the factors of wounding, etc. You can download it if you're interested:here.

DOL

Jedburgh,

See you did stints with the 5th group. Ever meet a guy named Ayman Taha in the 5th group?

 

[Jedburgh]

I knew Ayman very well. He was in my company. He was a good soldier and hell on wheels with a pistol.

DOL

 

[brownie]

I knew Ayman very well. He was in my company. He was a good soldier and hell on wheels with a pistol.

DOL

Hell on wheels with a pistol -- :thumsup

He trained with me for two days out here privately in Quick Kill pistol training and the M4 before deploying.

My wife considered him a son, he stayed as our guest for three days in my home while here. I made the funeral at Arlington and met his family. I'm still in touch with his wife on occasion.

Here's something I wrote about him on my own site years ago.

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2

Stay sharp out there.

 

[gatorhugger]

Myth? It's a myth to try to hit the target?
Seems like common sense to try to aim for the biggest section.
With adrenaline flowing and hands shaking I sure ain't playing Matt Dillon and making head shots.
I have seen actual shootings on video, they normally take about 2-4 seconds.
Most shots miss.
There is usually No time for more than point shooting, which I practice.
And point shooting means pointing at the biggest part of the body.
That ain't no myth.
Will it put em down in a smoldering hunk with smoke coming from the holes?
No.
But It sure makes sense to point at a large area.

 

[m46607]

Myth? It's a myth to try to hit the target?
Seems like common sense to try to aim for the biggest section.
With adrenaline flowing and hands shaking I sure ain't playing Matt Dillon and making head shots.
I have seen actual shootings on video, they normally take about 2-4 seconds.
Most shots miss.
There is usually No time for more than point shooting, which I practice.
And point shooting means pointing at the biggest part of the body.
That ain't no myth.
Will it put em down in a smoldering hunk with smoke coming from the holes?
No.
But It sure makes sense to point at a large area.

Your argument is valid.

However, the thread articulates how hitting center of mass may not stop every attacker abruptly.

 

[gatorhugger]

I thought that was common sense.
Everything I have ever read states anything short of a central nervous system hit is iffy.
That information has been published hundreds,maybe thousands of times in the last few years.
So I doubt there is soul that believes someone falls down upon getting hit in the chest. Unless it's a complete nimrod. The same kind that would think a .357 round to the arm will properl a person 10 yards backwards.

There is no accounting for stupidity, but a true myth has to have people believe it. I don't think there are many well read gun owners that think a center mass hit means instant death.
So therefore the myth label is false. It's a thread stating there is this myth that needs to be dispelled, when in reality, there is no myth at all.
I haven't met a knowledable gun owner in 20 years that believes one shot to the chest makes someone lie down and surrender.

 

[Mac45]

I thought that was common sense.
Everything I have ever read states anything short of a central nervous system hit is iffy.
That information has been published hundreds,maybe thousands of times in the last few years.
So I doubt there is soul that believes someone falls down upon getting hit in the chest. Unless it's a complete nimrod. The same kind that would think a .357 round to the arm will properl a person 10 yards backwards.

There is no accounting for stupidity, but a true myth has to have people believe it. I don't think there are many well read gun owners that think a center mass hit means instant death.
So therefore the myth label is false. It's a thread stating there is this myth that needs to be dispelled, when in reality, there is no myth at all.
I haven't met a knowledable gun owner in 20 years that believes one shot to the chest makes someone lie down and surrender.

I hate to burst your bubble here, but there are indeed people who believe that shooting someone once or twice in the torso, with a handgun, will bring them down. Just as there are people that believe they are adequately armed with a small caliber handgun of limited power. The number of "knowledgeable" firearms owners is not as large as you might think.

You are correct that most schools teach people to shoot for center mass to give a higher probability of hits on target. The point is, to get people, who intend to use a handgun to protect themselves from deadly attack, to realize that simply scoring 1 or 2 hits to the torso will probably not stop the attack. If you intend to survive a deadly assault by shooting someone in the chest, be prepared to put a lot of very big holes in him, very quickly. :thumsup