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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
A recent thread got brought a few things to mind for me. One big takeaway is the realization that many people seldom, if ever train and practice at distance with their carry gun. I'm not sure why I find that bit of reality surprising, but I do. I simply can't fathom standing at the range and shooting up boxes of ammo working on short-range skills that require little practice to maintain rather than stretching things out and challenging oneself.

One of my long-time standards for a carry can has been my ability to reliably score headshots at twenty-five yards with it. It's an arbitrary standard for me, I know, but one I use nonetheless. I've found that if I'm up for that with a given gun, longer shots are doable, as well.

There are only three occasions that I use the B-27 target as a part of my practice:

1) When I'm practicing point-shooting skills as taught by Brownie. Point-shooting at intended distances is less an exercise in precision than in delivering effective, fast, multiple hits;

2) When I'm working at ranges beyond sixty yards or so. At those ranges, hits anywhere are great, and will hopefully buy time in a real deal for more hits;

3) When I qualify in a class that uses them as a standard for qualification. My recent FASTER class is one example of that.

The rest of the time, I'm shooting either on precision targets, like the NRA Instructor Qualification target at fifteen yards, or a steel target. The TDI silhouette and headshot plate are the two I use on my home range.

I also didn't realize, again until I did an actual comparison, the aim-small/miss-small differences between a B-27 and TDI silhouette. Here is an overlay I took this morning:

Green Human body Rectangle Personal protective equipment Magenta
 

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I don’t see a single hole. You missed the entire target. 😂
Why don’t you do the drill? Let’s see the results.
10rnds @25yds in 15 seconds
Post it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I don’t see a single hole. You missed the entire target. 😂
Why don’t you do the drill? Let’s see the results.
10rnds @25yds in 15 seconds
Post it.
It's Shabbat. I don't shoot on Shabbat. It's also severe thunderstorms right now. I don't shoot in severe thunderstorms.

Dicken was shooting from 40-43 yards. Why are we doing twenty-five yarders here?
 
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A recent thread got brought a few things to mind for me. One big takeaway is the realization that many people seldom, if ever train and practice at distance with their carry gun. I'm not sure why I find that bit of reality surprising, but I do. I simply can't fathom standing at the range and shooting up boxes of ammo working on short-range skills that require little practice to maintain rather than stretching things out and challenging oneself.

One of my long-time standards for a carry can has been my ability to reliably score headshots at twenty-five yards with it. It's an arbitrary standard for me, I know, but one I use nonetheless. I've found that if I'm up for that with a given gun, longer shots are doable, as well.

There are only three occasions that I use the B-27 target as a part of my practice:

1) When I'm practicing point-shooting skills as taught by Brownie. Point-shooting at intended distances is less an exercise in precision than in delivering effective, fast, multiple hits;

2) When I'm working at ranges beyond sixty yards or so. At those ranges, hits anywhere are great, and will hopefully buy time in a real deal for more hits;

3) When I qualify in a class that uses them as a standard for qualification. My recent FASTER class is one example of that.

The rest of the time, I'm shooting either on precision targets, like the NRA Instructor Qualification target at fifteen yards, or a steel target. The TDI silhouette and headshot plate are the two I use on my home range.

I also didn't realize, again until I did an actual comparison, the aim-small/miss-small differences between a B-27 and TDI silhouette. Here is an overlay I took this morning:

View attachment 76847
You've made mention several times here of your practicing regularly out to 50-60 yards Mike. Many don't have access to pistol ranges that reach 50 yrds.

Like you, I've shot well past 25 yrds regularly to keep the basics up to snuff.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
You've made mention several times here of your practicing regularly out to 50-60 yards Mike. Many don't have access to pistol ranges that reach 50 yrds.

Like you, I've shot well past 25 yrds regularly to keep the basics up to snuff.
I feel particularly blessed in that regard.
 

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My guess is that many people do not regularly train at 40 yards with a handgun are:

1) the handgun is for self-defense, and at 40 yards, it may be more difficult to support a claim of imminent danger of great bodily harm / death.
2) indoor ranges seldom have 40 yard handgun lanes
3) people are not very good at shooting 40 yards, so they spend their time becoming proficient at closer, typical self-defense range.
 

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My guess is that many people do not regularly train at 40 yards with a handgun are:

1) the handgun is for self-defense, and at 40 yards, it may be more difficult to support a claim of imminent danger of great bodily harm / death.
2) indoor ranges seldom have 40 yard handgun lanes
3) people are not very good at shooting 40 yards, so they spend their time becoming proficient at closer, typical self-defense range.
Simply a product of not practicing at those longer distances. When I set up 3 innocents so the students had to thread the needle to take out the BG [ it left them about a 7-8" window to hit the BG ] at 15 yrds, 3 of 20 students were able to thread the needle and make a hit on the BG. There was no time constraint, take your time, make the shot.

Asked to make the shot myself after such dismal demonstrations of accuracy, I made it. I'd not ask students to do something I couldn't do myself [ though I'd not planned on being asked to demonstrate my own ability to thread the needle.

It was an eye opener for quite a few of them, a lesson in more training in the basics.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
My guess is that many people do not regularly train at 40 yards with a handgun are:

1) the handgun is for self-defense, and at 40 yards, it may be more difficult to support a claim of imminent danger of great bodily harm / death.
2) indoor ranges seldom have 40 yard handgun lanes
3) people are not very good at shooting 40 yards, so they spend their time becoming proficient at closer, typical self-defense range.
No arguments there.
 
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My guess is that many people do not regularly train at 40 yards with a handgun are:

1) the handgun is for self-defense, and at 40 yards, it may be more difficult to support a claim of imminent danger of great bodily harm / death.
2) indoor ranges seldom have 40 yard handgun lanes
3) people are not very good at shooting 40 yards, so they spend their time becoming proficient at closer, typical self-defense range.
Very well stated, Anduril!

Self-Defense rarely involves such large distances and depending on the circumstances, claiming self-defense at such distance may be a hard sell to the DA. Dicken heroically chose to open fire on a murderer with a long gun that was apparently not aiming at him (yet), but instead was killing innocents. So Dicken, at least initially was actually shooting in "defense of another."

As brownie stated, the answer to why people don't often choose to practice with their EDC at 40+ yards should not be so hard for anyone to understand; the vast majority of carriers do no have regular access to a range that they can shoot beyond 20-25 yards for a scenario they've been taught is a low probably occurrence! The Indiana Mall shooting instructs us all that while rare, it's also not unrealistic either and should be considered in one's training and practice. IMHO, specifically replicating the 40+ yard, 8 out of 10 hit scenario is misleading and not at all the point, especially when we still don't know all the facts about the distance of each of Dicksen's shots were. However, a more general time-distance scenario was the point. I'm fairly certain that even one hit on the turd would have disrupted the turd's OODA loop and Dicksen might still have even been labeled a hero!

I commend racer for making up an example timed distance drill that he could experiment with on the ranges he had access to (20-25 yards max), trying that drill, and documenting his results here in a specific thread. Comments about his targets, intended or not, did seem a bit snarky or overly critical and missing the point of the exercise by suggesting he spend more time training on handgun basics instead of posting his results. I'm also sorry that racer got so offended by that criticism. The problem with the written word is often the message may be easily misinterpreted by one or both sides of the conversation, especially without sight and sound to color the tone of the conversation to go with it. Let's all try to keep that in mind, please! Many of us here have taken courses together and on occasion, even broken bread together. This is a great forum with a lot of great and funny personalities. I'd hate to see FCC go the way of other, larger online forums. 🤠
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Simply a product of not practicing at those longer distances. When I set up 3 innocents so the students had to thread the needle to take out the BG [ it left them about a 7-8" window to hit the BG ] at 15 yrds, 3 of 20 students were able to thread the needle and make a hit on the BG. There was no time constraint, take your time, make the shot.

Asked to make the shot myself after such dismal demonstrations of accuracy, I made it. I'd not ask students to do something I couldn't do myself [ though I'd not planned on being asked to demonstrate my own ability to thread the needle.

It was an eye opener for quite a few of them, a lesson in more training in the basics.
Credit where credit is due. That is one example of a drill that made me focus on things I had not realized before. I came away from both your classes with a host of freshly-imparted and instilled skills that I had not realized were there before. Yours is always a name that is at the top of the list of instructors who taught me to be a better, more effective shooter. David Spaulding, David Bowie, Greg Ellifritz, Forrest Sonnewald and John Benner are up there, as well.

When I take a class, it's usually in the $200 to $300 per day range. Throw several hundred rounds of ammo, lodging and travel in there and it becomes one expensive day. If I come away with one worthwhile takeaway that makes me faster, more accurate or wiser in the decision-making process of shooting and thus survival, I consider it money well-spent. When I train with you, it also involves at least a 1900-mile round trip.

Guys like you and the other ones I mentioned are all very good at making sure I know things I didn't know before, and acting effectively on that knowledge. I try to do the same for folks I encounter along the way.
 

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It's Shabbat. I don't shoot on Shabbat. It's also severe thunderstorms right now. I don't shoot in severe thunderstorms.

Dicken was shooting from 40-43 yards. Why are we doing twenty-five yarders here?
Because as mentioned most indoor ranges down here that is the limit. You say you regularly train farther? So 25yds should be easy for you? So why not do it? Let’s see it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
Because as mentioned most indoor ranges down here that is the limit. You say you regularly train farther? So 25yds should be easy for you? So why not do it? Let’s see it.
I posted seven shots at fifty yards on the butt-hurt thread. That didn't convince you? Here it is again. At twenty-five yards, I'm simply burning up ammo on that target.
 

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Nope didn’t convince me. Not talking about slow fire at 50yds.
Do it same as Racer 10rnds @25yds in under 15 seconds

I posted a one hole target of 50rnds at 25yds but it wasn’t timed.
So burn up ten rounds. Why not?
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Nope didn’t convince me.
Do it same as Racer 10rnds @25yds in under 15 seconds

I posted a one hole target of 50rnd at 25yds but it’s not the same.
So burn up ten rounds. Why not?
Racer did his drill with his carry gun, a 10-round, double stack forty cal. My carry gun is a seven +1 single stack .45. I don't own a forty. Whatever shall we do now?
 
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I commend racer for making up an example timed distance drill that he could experiment with on the ranges he had access to (20-25 yards max), trying that drill, and documenting his results here in a specific thread. Comments about his targets, intended or not, did seem a bit snarky or overly critical and missing the point of the exercise by suggesting he spend more time training on handgun basics instead of posting his results. I'm also sorry that racer got so offended by that criticism. The problem with the written word is often the message may be easily misinterpreted by one or both sides of the conversation, especially without sight and sound to color the tone of the conversation to go with it. Let's all try to keep that in mind, please! Many of us here have taken courses together and on occasion, even broken bread together. This is a great forum with a lot of great and funny personalities. I'd hate to see FCC go the way of other, larger online forums. 🤠
when one is subject to the same snarkisms (?) they themselves might use in a similar situation, the last thing many would suspect is that they would take offense...you can read into the responses as deeply as you want...some seem to be able to dish but not consume...this isnt the first time a similar situation has popped up with regular characters...the fact that many of us have trained together and broken bread would lead most to believe these types of barbs would be easily handled...i wont expound on my feelings because they are more insulting than anything else posted...
 

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Question: For those of us who have only 20 or 25 yard lanes available to us, how effective and realistic is it to scale the targets down proportionally to simulate shooting at 40 yards? Use a half-size silhouette, for example. MOA are MOA at distances where windage and gravity drop are inconsequential.

That's what I tend to do.
 

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Racer did his drill with his carry gun, a 10-round, double stack forty cal. My carry gun is a seven +1 single stack .45. I don't own a forty. Whatever shall we do now?
Shoot 8 in 12 secs. If you wanted to you could find an alternative but it doesn’t seem like you wish to do that.
 

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Question: For those of us who have only 20 or 25 yard lanes available to us, how effective and realistic is it to scale the targets down proportionally to simulate shooting at 40 yards? Use a half-size silhouette, for example. MOA are MOA at distances where windage and gravity drop are inconsequential.

That's what I tend to do.
if thats what you would be carrying then those are the results people would be looking at...its a hypothetical in response to an actual situation that God forbid we hope nobody ever runs into again...shoot em up...
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Shoot 8 in 12 secs. If you wanted to you could find an alternative but it doesn’t seem like you wish to do that.
I already posted "an alternative" and yet you persist. As I explained previously, today is Shabbat, so I won't be shooting, regardless. We have a prohibition against striking a fire on Shabbat.
 

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I already posted "an alternative" and yet you persist. As I explained previously, today is Shabbat, so I won't be shooting, regardless. We have a prohibition against striking a fire on Shabbat.
this caused me to do some research and learn something new...thanks...
 
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