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A recent class and then a deep dive into the gun safe brought this topic to the forefront for me yet again.

I spent nearly a decade, untold thousands of fired rounds and many thousand training dollars trying to acquire decent FSP handgun shooting accuracy. I went to good schools with effective, experienced FSP instructors and worked very hard to absorb and apply the skills they were trying to impart--acquire a solid stance, build an effective grip, extend while picking up and focusing on the front sight, align the top of the front sight with the top of the rear sight with equal spaces to the left and right of the front sight, get the correct amount of the finger pad on the trigger, nice, smooth trigger press... Like I said, untold thousands of dry fire reps and rounds down range, practice, schools, even private instruction and coaching, and I was still, at best, a middle of the road shooter when compared to the other students in a typical class. Instructors who "guarantee" noticeable improvement after taking their classes were doing their best, I was doing my best, yet there was no real progress beyond that plateau I had reached early on in the endeavor. I guessed this to be as good as I was ever going to be.

In 2015, wishing to acquire the additional skills that Brownie's QuickKill/Point Shooting program claimed to offer, I traveled from Ohio to Florida to train in one of his weekend classes. I found that he did indeed deliver skills to his students as promised. More speed, good hits utilizing a distance-dependent variety of indexed aiming techniques, He also taught an aiming technique he called threat-focused. This was a term I had never heard in any of my previous shooting classes. He did describe it on the Defensive Carry forum where he and I were both participating members, usually to the derisive ridicule of the FSP-is-the-only-way internet experts. At the class, he taught us to apply it to our shooting out to twenty or twenty five yards in conjunction with his QuickKill approach. It seemed to work just fine for me. I came home, and continued to practice it.

As I worked with it, I realized that my previous difficulties shooting handguns came as a result of my inability to draw a clear focus on my front sight. When I focused on the target instead of the front sight, then drew up a fuzzy front and rear sight picture, I was getting hits that I was never getting before. I increased the distance well past twenty-five yards, still focusing on the targets instead of the front sight, still getting hits like never before. More practice, more accuracy, greater distance, threat-focused, increased effectiveness. In subsequent group classes at other schools, I had moved from the middle of the road to the front of the pack.

I had been using red dots for a few years prior to Brownie's class, but never concentrating my efforts on threat-focused sighting. Focus on the dot, align it to the target, shoot. Not really a lot of improvement over conventional sights. A little, for sure, but nothing huge. After acquiring the threat-focused method of aim, the red dot became my go-to for both carry and classes.

The recent lesson:

Some years back, I acquired a well-used, well-worn Beretta 92S, a model used by some European police forces. A US distributor had acquired and imported thousands of them, and was selling them for a song. I was still on my quest for the perfect handgun, so I picked one up. That particular model has an integral front sight post that is scarcely more than a bump, which cannot be removed/replaced. As I shot it, utilizing the FSP method of aim, the only one I knew, my rounds were hitting incorrectably, unacceptably high. I attributed it to the front sight post being worn down to the point of uselessness. I soon wrote the gun off as a failed experiment, and consigned it to the safe. That was before I became a threat-focused shooter.

I recently dug the gun out just for giggles, and to see if it was reliable enough to give to a close relative for the home protection role. Its DA/SA action and decocker make it, at least in my opinion, one of the safest options for less-experienced shooters who need a reliable, up-close-and-personal gun.

I loaded up a mag and headed out to the range. Given my previous experiences with the gun, I started off at fifteen yards. This would give me a refresher on just how low it shoots. I aimed at the securement bolts on my 2/3 steel silhouette, sent a round DA, and it hit, spot-on. I moved back to twenty. Same thing. Twenty-five, still hitting point of aim. There was never anything wrong with the gun, or its sights. Given my inability to front sight focus, I simply was unable to effectively aim and fire it accurately. Using threat focused aiming, the gun works fine for me.

Recent lesson #2- I attended two, three-day training sessions at Tactical Defense Institute. Both classes involved quite a bit of close-up precision shooting, dot-torture-type work. I took the first class with my .45 Shield red dot. Eight hundred rounds in three days. It worked great, I was doing front-of-the-pack work, all was well.

For class #2, I opted to take 9mm. At almost half the price of .45 ammo, I thought I would save a few bucks. The first day, I ran my old carry gun, an iron sight S&W9c. It worked great at distance, but for the up close precision stuff, I lagged. The lesson to me was that threat focused with irons on precision stuff doesn't afford me the precision I need. I switched over to my Glock 17 with red dot for days two and three, and things were back to normal for me.

Lessons-I am much more effective as a threat-focused shooter than FSP.

I'm much more accurate with a dot than with irons.
 

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I always practiced by shooting both eyes open and pointing. It was good at 30 feet but got a crap shoot any farther.
I now use a LASER and it is perfect for my old eyes.
You still need practice to use it because you need to train your brain not to hesitate and fire as soon as the red is on where you want the bullet to hit.
With the laser, You only look at the target and pay no attention to the gun you are using.
Unless you are out on a sunny day and the red does not show up good after 30 0r 40 feet..
Then you can use the old point and shoot or aim if you have time.
Nothing is perfect except ===PRACTICE, - PRACTICE & MORE PRACTICE.
Ronnie
 
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My comp 1911 would put 7 rds inside 2-3" at 7 yrds. Put the dot on it for a special dot match, it would shoot one ragged hole at the same distance.

My M1a standard, I could shot a 1" groups at 100 benched. With the scope on it, 5/8" groups all day benched.

Same guns, different optics used, It's the aging eyes, nothing more to it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
My comp 1911 would put 7 rds inside 2-3" at 7 yrds. Put the dot on it for a special dot match, it would shoot one ragged hole at the same distance.

My M1a standard, I could shot a 1" groups at 100 benched. With the scope on it, 5/8" groups all day benched.

Same guns, different optics used, It's the aging eyes, nothing more to it.
For the heck of it, I rotated and zeroed two different dots on three different carry guns. The same gun was my most accurate shooter, regardless of the dot. The Performance Center .45 Shield with 4" barrel outperformed both my Glock 17 and Performance Center 4" Shield Plus. In fairness to the Plus, I'm not accustomed to shooting it yet.
 

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Not bait at all, simply an account of how things were. I posted this exact thread over there this morning, as well. I know you and Brownie are both banned there, but you can still lurk if you want to check out the comments.
Only lurking I did was after I got undeservedly banned to see who clicked like on the reply of the mod that did it.



If they want my clicks (and the clicks my posts generate) they can unban me; I had one undeserved warning in 12 years prior to the undeserved ban, no suspensions, no time outs - you know that aint right.

Pic of dot equipped pistols to keep post related to thread topic. 😇
Yes, that hit outside the circle at 25 yards was irritating.
White Product Air gun Machine gun Trigger
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Only lurking I did was after I got undeservedly banned to see who clicked like on the reply of the mod that did it.

If they want my clicks (and the clicks my posts generate) they can unban me; I had one undeserved warning in 12 years prior to the undeserved ban, no suspensions, no time outs - you know that aint right.
Personally, I believe it was the incessant memes.
 

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I go down to Walmart and practice burst sprinting in the parking lot, zig-zagging, while ducking, between parked cars and shopping carts.
You’d be shocked how fast I can disappear.
 

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Something I was taught with front sight shooting was to look at the specific location on the target and raise the firearm until you were more or less aligned and the last thing you do is to focus on, thru the sight to make minor adjustments if needed.

Most of it as muscle memory.

It's what got me into trouble when brownie had us start doing point and shoot head shots. I started hunching and bobbing my head to get that final confirmation because the sights were 'right there'

What was odd to me is that when I was doing head shots after point shoulder shoot, I didn't have that problem. It felt natural. Same when exbluelight was teaching us.

Funny what difference an inch or so can make.
 

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I will add what I have learned over 40 yrs of instruction. Time and distance dictates technique.
Point shooting and it’s place, flash sight picture has its place and aimed fire has its place.
Let me repeat, time and distance dictates technique.
I know Brownie, love him. I teach index shooting also. Even he will tell you at 45 yrds aimed fire is what he is going with. Knowing your limitations is everything.
Point shooting is great as long as you know your ability. Some are ok at 5 yrds others at 20 yrds. Nobody is good at 30 yrds with index shooting.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I will add what I have learned over 40 yrs of instruction. Time and distance dictates technique.
Point shooting and it’s place, flash sight picture has its place and aimed fire has its place.
Let me repeat, time and distance dictates technique.
I know Brownie, love him. I teach index shooting also. Even he will tell you at 45 yrds aimed fire is what he is going with. Knowing your limitations is everything.
Point shooting is great as long as you know your ability. Some are ok at 5 yrds others at 20 yrds. Nobody is good at 30 yrds with index shooting.
I'm pulling up the same sight picture at eighty yards as at ten yards, except for holdover. What you are calling point shooting falls waaay off the menu for me much past five or six yards.

I'm pretty sure that seven yards was chosen as the go-to distance for speed shooting for that very reason. The fast-as-lightning point shooters' techniques start coming up weak at that distance, giving the FSP guys a chance to catch up. JMO, of course, but it makes perfect sense to me. Seven yards remains the standard.
 

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I'm pulling up the same sight picture at eighty yards as at ten yards, except for holdover. What you are calling point shooting falls waaay off the menu for me much past five or six yards.

I'm pretty sure that seven yards was chosen as the go-to distance for speed shooting for that very reason. The fast-as-lightning point shooters' techniques start coming up weak at that distance, giving the FSP guys a chance to catch up. JMO, of course, but it makes perfect sense to me. Seven yards remains the standard.
Plate shoots/competition sets the rack of plates at 11 yards [ 33 feet ]. They are head sized plates [ 9-10" ]. For years, I took 1, 2nd, 3rd place using the Quick Kill pistol skill with a milspec 1911 [ tiny little nub front sight ] using peripheral vision and the reference point and never looking at the gun. I shot against people with 2K race guns that used their high profile sights to shoot the plates. Very few could touch the QK pistol skill for speed on the plates.

We had students shooting 20 yrds at a tennis ball in some courses. One shot using their sights, one shot using QK pistol. Many who had just learned the threat focused QK skill actually shot closer to or hit the ball at that distance when they missed with their sighted shot. Shocked the crap out of some of them.

As Bob mentioned, some can extend the range of threat focused skill past normally acceptable distances. I know I'm good to 11 yrds with QK pistol, having expended hundreds of hours shooting head shots at that distance in speed shoots. Best time from surrender to knock 6 plates down [ make 6 head shots ], 4.2 seconds from surrender position. Best time for 5 head shots was 3.8 and change IIRC. But I've owned and used that skill almost exclusively since 1981 [ ya, 41 years now and at least 300K rds downrange ] and at the time I was competing, I'd owned the skill for a little over a decade.
 

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I'm pulling up the same sight picture at eighty yards as at ten yards, except for holdover. What you are calling point shooting falls waaay off the menu for me much past five or six yards.

I'm pretty sure that seven yards was chosen as the go-to distance for speed shooting for that very reason. The fast-as-lightning point shooters' techniques start coming up weak at that distance, giving the FSP guys a chance to catch up. JMO, of course, but it makes perfect sense to me. Seven yards remains the standard.
I'm not arguing with either you or bttbbob. But I'm not sure if it's that cut and dried.

If it's a 'fact' or an 'accepted limitation' associated to how we were trained to shoot.

We have all seen individuals who break thru 'accepted limitation's, whether that be on you tube, in training, or in country.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I'm not arguing with either you or bttbbob. But I'm not sure if it's that cut and dried.

If it's a 'fact' or an 'accepted limitation' associated to how we were trained to shoot.

We have all seen individuals who break thru 'accepted limitation's, whether that be on you tube, in training, or in country.
Nothing is cut and dried, IMO despite remonstrations to the contrary. Nuances in technique, as well as the techniques employed, vary from person to person. It is difficult to objectify subjective concepts. Threat-focused vs front sight press are fairly easy, IMO to differentiate between, but other concepts become more subjective. What is aimed fire, exactly? How about point shooting? Are QuickKill techniques aimed fire, point shooting or indexed? Are they all nails to be driven by the same hammer?
 

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Nothing is cut and dried, IMO despite remonstrations to the contrary. Nuances in technique, as well as the techniques employed, vary from person to person. It is difficult to objectify subjective concepts. Threat-focused vs front sight press are fairly easy, IMO to differentiate between, but other concepts become more subjective. What is aimed fire, exactly? How about point shooting? Are QuickKill techniques aimed fire, point shooting or indexed? Are they all nails to be driven by the same hammer?
Nothing is cut and dried, IMO despite remonstrations to the contrary. Nuances in technique, as well as the techniques employed, vary from person to person. It is difficult to objectify subjective concepts. Threat-focused vs front sight press are fairly easy, IMO to differentiate between, but other concepts become more subjective. What is aimed fire, exactly? How about point shooting? Are QuickKill techniques aimed fire, point shooting or indexed? Are they all nails to be driven by the same hammer?
This is simple, QuickKILL, index and point shooting are all different names for the same technique. Aimed fire is when the sights are used. What is not subjective is the mathematical equation for every persons successful hits. Time and distance is in fact the equation.
Here is what I use as an example. Pick a distance starting close 3 yrds. Use an A zone target, draw as quickly as you can using index shooting. 10 shot drill, hopefully all in the A Zone. Next move to 5 yrds, repeat. NEXt move to 7 yrds, repeat. Then move to 10 yrds, repeat. When your A zone hits become less than 90% hit ration, your previous yard line is your max effective range with that technique. Repeat this same exact drill with using flash sight picture. FInd your sweet spot again. Repeat this drill again with aimed fire.
Now once you have found what your maximum effective range is with each technique, repeat the same drills under inoculated stress and a timer. You will find your effective range is not what it is in a static technique. After doing these drills you will have a pretty good idea, what your time and distance techniques calculations that are effective.
Remember, you cannot miss fast enough.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
This is simple, QuickKILL, index and point shooting are all different names for the same technique. Aimed fire is when the sights are used. What is not subjective is the mathematical equation for every persons successful hits. Time and distance is in fact the equation.
Here is what I use as an example. Pick a distance starting close 3 yrds. Use an A zone target, draw as quickly as you can using index shooting. 10 shot drill, hopefully all in the A Zone. Next move to 5 yrds, repeat. NEXt move to 7 yrds, repeat. Then move to 10 yrds, repeat. When your A zone hits become less than 90% hit ration, your previous yard line is your max effective range with that technique. Repeat this same exact drill with using flash sight picture. FInd your sweet spot again. Repeat this drill again with aimed fire.
Now once you have found what your maximum effective range is with each technique, repeat the same drills under inoculated stress and a timer. You will find your effective range is not what it is in a static technique. After doing these drills you will have a pretty good idea, what your time and distance techniques calculations that are effective.
Remember, you cannot miss fast enough.
For some reason, my tool bar is disabled, and I cannot highlight.

As far as QuickKill, indexed and point-shooting all being different names for the same thing, not in any conversation I'm having. Quarter, half, three quarter, and high (pectoral) retention are all indexed, but not all QuickKill. I don't have a "flash sight picture" in the context you are using it. I'm not using the same index at the different distances you described. I'm using the same muzzle alignment method at five yards as I'm using at eighty (at least for the A zone), but not the same as one or three yards.
 

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For some reason, my tool bar is disabled, and I cannot highlight.

As far as QuickKill, indexed and point-shooting all being different names for the same thing, not in any conversation I'm having. Quarter, half, three quarter, and high (pectoral) retention are all indexed, but not all QuickKill. I don't have a "flash sight picture" in the context you are using it. I'm not using the same index at the different distances you described. I'm using the same muzzle alignment method at five yards as I'm using at eighty (at least for the A zone), but not the same as one or three yards.
Sorry MIke, I Totally disagree. Let's start with your statement on QuickKill, it is an instinctive sighting technique, target focused and gun indexed.. You are not using sights. That makes it point shooting, index shooting, When you confuse a position, and that is what you did with Quarter, half and three quarter (they are point shooting positions) not sighting or gun alignment. You say you are not using the same index at different distance and then come back and say you index the muzzle the same at 5 yrds as you do at 80 yrds. I am not sure you understand what you are claiming.
Hitting a target at any distance is the muzzle alignment to the target. To hit a target, the muzzle has to have the same alignment to hit target, regardless of the type of sight alignment or gun index you use.
There are no other methods of aiming other than Index (point shooting), Flash sight (focusing on target and firing when the ft sight is somewhere on the target, not aligned), and then aimed fire ( sights alignment tied into sight picture).
There are only so many ways to sight and shoot a gun. Nothing new in over 100 yrs.
 
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