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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
If you go to enough shooting schools eventually you will hear an instructor pass along a piece of age old wisdom, "Speed is fine, but accuracy is final." Unfortunately, reality is a bit more complicated. If a typical gun fight lasts three seconds but you need four seconds to draw and deliver your first supremely accurate shot… the only thing that will be "final" is your life.

Practical shooting - whether it's for fighting or for competition - necessarily requires a balance between speed and accuracy. How you balance them is dependent on the target, distance, situation, and your skill level. But balance them you must Accuracy alone isn't going to win the day. If you cannot deliver metal on meat faster than your opponent..guess what? You lose.

Accuracy is easier to learn than speed.. Basic marksmanship can be taught in very little time and the fundamentals are well known and understood by most instructors. Essentially, it just boils down to proper sight alignment and proper trigger manipulation. Learning those fundamentals well enough to hit a torso at 25 yards is no challenge
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Too often, instructors approach speed as if it were some kind of natural evolution. "Slow is smooth and smooth is fast" is another one of those silly lines instructors bandy about without really understanding the underlying principles. The fact is, if you practice slow deliberate perfect marksmanship all the time the only thing you'll be good at is slow deliberate marksmanship. Speed won't just happen on its own.

If you want to learn to shoot fast you need to spend time working on speed. Like anything else, the only way you'll make significant gains is by pushing the envelope. As we've already determined, accuracy and speed exist in balance. Push one to the limit and you'll necessarily see the other suffer. So if you really want to learn to shoot fast, you need to accept a frightening truth. It's ok to miss, sometimes.

A common exercise used to build speed is to draw and fire six shots as fast as you can guarantee six good hits. But if you are getting six good hits every time you do a drill, you aren't pushing yourself. You aren't challenging yourself. And you aren't going to improve much. Instead, find a pace that has you missing a shot every drill or two. Missing 10-15% of your shots means you're in the zone. If you miss more than that, you need to slow down and work on marksmanship. If you miss less, you need to speed up.

By taking this approach, it is easy to regulate how fast you should be going. You'll get immediate feedback. If you're shooting a fist-sized group at seven yards, you are going too slow. If you can't keep most of your shots within an 8" circle at that distance, you're going too fast. Adjust your tempo and try again. Pay attention to what the gun and target are telling you. Learn from them.

Why are we purposely missing the target? As stated earlier, learning to shoot fast is harder than just learning to shoot accurately. Shooting fast means learning to go faster than you have before. You need to learn to draw faster, manipulate the trigger faster, control muzzle flip better. Learning to shoot faster means getting a little out of control. Not a lot, but just enough to feel that edge, to find the limit of your performance and push past it just a little.

Shooting fast is no less a skill than shooting accurately. And unless the only thing you care about is bullseye shooting, learning to shoot faster is a fundamental aspect of becoming a better shooter. The only way to get faster is to go faster. Push yourself, stay focused, and have fun.

The purpose of this article is to make you think about and to open up a discussion concerning your holster of choice and your carry methods. Be it IWB, OWB, Ankle, Tuckables, Crossdraws, Pocket carry, fanny pack, purse etc, When or if actually violently confronted how long would it take you to draw and fire if needed? Does speed matter or are you going to pray you have the time to access your firearm if needed. Is comfort and printing more of a concern for you than who gets off the first shot? I understand we all make compromises but at what price?

There is no second place winner in a lethal force encounter--only first and first loser. When the stake is one's life, losing is not an option! To be prepared, one must possess the necessary knowledge, skills and mindset. Achieving these skills requires proper training and continuous practice.
 

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SwampRat, thanks for posting
 

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Good Stuff SR!
 

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Good post SR. Thanks!
 

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It's about time you put this one to post here Swamper :drinks Glad you brought this subject to light. It's very timely as I'm thinking of another subject to post based on a thread here involving holsters and draw speed times. :D

Time and Distance are some of the indicators dictating where you need to be down the road----------

http://floridaconcealedcarry.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=28529#post28529

Brownie
 

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SwampRat this is where my relationship with my gun has led me. It's not just shooting accurately but it's the whole process of moving cover garment, getting a grip on the weapon and then using point shooting skills to get off the shots first. I've practiced this at the range and also at home dry firing. My next step is going to be using Airsoft to practice. It will be less expensive to practice with and will fit easier in my schedule. It won't have the recoil but will at least give me a good time to first shot.

This is also important because the mind and body will revert back to what was practiced when in a stressful situation. I have seen this happen to me before and so I'm relying on that same thing for a SD scenario.

Good post :thumsup
 

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Great post Swamp Rat. Lots to think about. :thumsup
 

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The purpose of this article is to make you think about and to open up a discussion concerning your holster of choice and your carry methods. Be it IWB, OWB, Ankle, Tuckables, Crossdraws, Pocket carry, fanny pack, purse etc, When or if actually violently confronted how long would it take you to draw and fire if needed?

Okay, let's look at the choice of holsters and how long it takes to draw and fire as this was the stated purpose of the SwampRat's thread with the idea that everyone who responds to this question will have identified a potential problem and has moved to the state of readiness to draw just to keep everyone's perspective the same in their responses.--------------

I carry 3'Oclock [ right handed shooter ] in OWB pancakes. From an un-tucked closed cover garment, hands at my sides and something making me consciously aware I may need to draw, I can draw and fire a COM shot from 10 feet between .88 and .98 seconds.

From the same holster with an open front garment unbuttoned, about the same in .85-.95. Both the closed cover and open front draws are one handed.

Best draws timed from my gunfighter rig worn at the shop has been .38 seconds, from a BladeTec Stingray kydex holster at .43 and open carried in the same pancake leather holster will be somewhere between .58 to .62 seconds..

Brownie
 

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Great Post.............:thumsup

My gear varies depending on my activities. It would be a good practice to run my times (I think I will just for reference) from all my carry options. Generally though (most of the time) I carry 4'Oclock [ right handed shooter ] in a IWB Blade Tech holster. From an un-tucked cover garment, hands at the surrender position, I can draw and fire a COM shot (from 10 - 12 feet) between .90 - 1.10 average.

It will be interesting to check my times from the hands by my side, uncovered, drawing from the pocket, etc.......
 

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How Fast is Fast Enough?

The narrative below was written by myself back in March of 2006 and put to the members of my forum.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Can we even quantify [ with a timer ] how fast is fast enough for self defense?

Is there a magic number in terms of seconds or one second + hundredths of seconds which would be acceptable for any particular self defense situation where the use of our concealed carry gun is concerned?

What goals [ if we can quatify such in reaction time to shots fired ] do we establish as realistically viable for the average ccw carrier on the street?

Most of us practice with our carry weapons with two primary missions or goals in mind where use of the handgun will be used to defend ourselves.

1. To be able to clear leather/kydex and get rounds out as quickly as possible [ physical ] when the decision to use deadly force is made [ mental ].

2. To effectively put rounds on the perceived threat/s with enough accuracy [ in places that hurt/stop them ] to have the desired effect of stopping further potential deadly force being used against us.

Can it be quantified in "time" at all? It seems it would be situational dependant on a multitude of factors to me.

Time [ where we are in the OODA cycle ] and distance being the two biggest perhaps.

Can we determine that sub one second draws to first shot are fast enough? What is a realistic expectation of time to decide to shoot [ mental ] and then drawing to first shot on the street [ physical ability ]?

How Fast is Fast Enough?

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Wonder what the responses will be from members here now some 3 years later. The above fits perfectly with this discussion started by SwampRat [ at least I hope it creates a discussion of others thoughts on this subject ] so we can all benefit from others past experiences and views.

So far, no one has really responded to "The purpose of this article is to make you think about and to open up a discussion concerning your holster of choice and your carry methods. Be it IWB, OWB, Ankle, Tuckables, Crossdraws, Pocket carry, fanny pack, purse etc, When or if actually violently confronted how long would it take you to draw and fire if needed?" question put forth.

Come on people, someone has to have some ideas on the questions put forth. Without discussion, it's a good read, with discussion it's a great read.

Edited to add:

Good times from closed front cover garment Standby :thumsup

Brownie
 

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Practicing to bring your weapon into play from the holster when confronted by an armed adversary is a very good idea. As long as you realize that, should you be drawing against an adversry with a firearm, or a knife, at short range, you are going to take damage. If you can draw, align your weapon and fire [and hit your target] within .75 seconds; you will still probably be shot or stabbed. Unless your opponent has the reaction speed of a tree sloth, he will still put metal on your person before you can shoot him.

This is not to say that you should not draw and attempt to down your opponent. What do you have to lose? After all, your opponent may hesitate, his firearm may misfire, he may miss, or he may wimp out. In CQB, winning the fight does not, necessarily mean surviving the fight. But, once you commit to fighting, losing is no longer an option. And being able to draw, fire and hit your target quickly, can limit the amount of damage you will sustain. So, practice, practice, practice.
 

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Practicing to bring your weapon into play from the holster when confronted by an armed adversary is a very good idea. As long as you realize that, should you be drawing against an adversry with a firearm, or a knife, at short range, you are going to take damage. If you can draw, align your weapon and fire [and hit your target] within .75 seconds; you will still probably be shot or stabbed. Unless your opponent has the reaction speed of a tree sloth, he will still put metal on your person before you can shoot him.

This is not to say that you should not draw and attempt to down your opponent. What do you have to lose? After all, your opponent may hesitate, his firearm may misfire, he may miss, or he may wimp out. In CQB, winning the fight does not, necessarily mean surviving the fight. But, once you commit to fighting, losing is no longer an option. And being able to draw, fire and hit your target quickly, can limit the amount of damage you will sustain. So, practice, practice, practice.
"Without another word the man drew a pistol from under his coat and tried to aim it at Bryce. Before he could fire Bryce drew and killed him."

"Inside the room, lounged on the bed in skimpy pajamas, lay Mrs. Merle Bolen, the owner of the hotel, and J. Ray O'Donnell. O'Donnell was one of the gangsters the detectives had come to question. He was holding two automatic pistols. Bryce's .38 was still holstered on his hip under his coat. Without saying a word O'Donnell raised the pistols at Bryce to fire point blank. A single motion blurred with speed, Bryce drew and killed him before he could pull the trigger."

"Bryce later said, "When I looked into the room there he was, up on his elbows with a gun in both hands, aimed right at me. He was lying on the near side, and the woman was on the other side of him. I jumped to one side, out of the line of fire, grabbed my gun and tore him up."

Two other seperate encounters and re-countings of Bill Jordan's numerous gun fights show he had a gun pointed at him at point blank range by illegals on the border and he killed them both before they could pull the triggers. These re-countings don't state whether he moved off line or not when he drew and fired so we can't say one way or the other.

My point Mac, if I'm "drawing against an adversry with a firearm, or a knife, at short range" I'm not expecting to take damage. It may happen but I'm not expecting to take damage. I think the mindset of accepting the fact I'm going to take damage is counter to the proper mindset of training.

I was involved with the ruling chinatown tong gang in Boston back around 1994 where a rival gang wanting to take over the turf caught 4 of these guys off guard walking down a sidewalk. At 6-8 feet everyone let lead fly from both sides, and not one shot hit any of them on either side. Something like 70-75 rounds fired from both sides [ near as we could count from the shell casings ] and no hits at what amounted to near bad breath distance.

In Force on Force classes at conversational distances, I train to attack/trap the aggressor's hand going for the weapon. In knife on knife at that range, I won't be drawing a gun [ I'm not guncentric that way as that scenario is not a gun solution as most would think initially ] and will likely take damage as you suggest while I'm protecting my body core. Then one needs to understand how to create time and distance physically to be able to draw the firearm.

Just my take on why I train as hard as I do for speed out of the holster to COM shots up close and personal along with the tactics employed at the same time. There's too much evidence from the old masters who lived by their speed and wits to ignore the fact that "speed kills, the other guy". Of course, more than one assailant will paint a different picture and the odds are more in favor of taking damage.

Brownie
 

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I like your tong story. I'm not exactly sure of your point there. If, in fact, no one was hit in a fire-fight at 8', then these clowns were either shooting back over their shoulders as they ran away or were incredibly bad shots and probably should have availed themselves of your class. As for Bryce, as you pointed out in an earlier post, he was just scary fast. Most people are never going to achieve either his speed or accuracy. Bill Jordan got out of the way as he drew. So, getting back to my point, in a situation where you are looking down the barrel of a firearm at 10' or less, against an opponent of even marginal ability who intends to shoot you and his weapon does not misfire, you will be shot if you stand and draw your weapon and shoot him. His reaction time should allow him to pull the trigger within .75 to 1.0 seconds. This does not mean he will kill you. But, as we all learned from the shop owner's tale from LA, you will be injured and you must continue to fight.

The danger for most people, is that they enter a fight not expecting to be hurt. When they are, they shut down. They stop fighting and, in a gunfight, they die. You say that you do not expect to take a hit in a CQB gunfight, but it might happen. If it does, what are you going to do? This is my point. You train to win the fight. Being able to draw and fire on the move is nearly essential to winning the fight with a minimum of damage. Most of the people who carry a defensive firearm don't do that, nor will they ever be able to do that. It is increadibly hard to hit an 8" target from 10' reliably while moving, and requires a lot of initial training and regular refresher training to maintain the skill. At close range, the average person will likely be limited to drawing his weapon while standing there flatfooted and opening fire upon his opponent, shooting until his weapon is dry. Therefor, the chances of taking a hit are significantly increased. So, to win through to the other side, the average urban gunslinger can not afford to think about survival, only about winning.

I agree that the faster you can clear leather and engage your adversary the better. I am afraid that expectations of coming through a close encounter with a gun toting adversary, with no injuries, are low. In a gunfight, I don't think about living or dying. I allow my training to dictate my tactical responses and my only goal is to be the last man standing, by any means necessary. This is made possible by mental conditioning. I will prevail. There is no other option.
 

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I like your tong story. I'm not exactly sure of your point there. If, in fact, no one was hit in a fire-fight at 8', then these clowns were either shooting back over their shoulders as they ran away or were incredibly bad shots and probably should have availed themselves of your class. As for Bryce, as you pointed out in an earlier post, he was just scary fast. Most people are never going to achieve either his speed or accuracy. Bill Jordan got out of the way as he drew. So, getting back to my point, in a situation where you are looking down the barrel of a firearm at 10' or less, against an opponent of even marginal ability who intends to shoot you and his weapon does not misfire, you will be shot if you stand and draw your weapon and shoot him. His reaction time should allow him to pull the trigger within .75 to 1.0 seconds. This does not mean he will kill you. But, as we all learned from the shop owner's tale from LA, you will be injured and you must continue to fight.

The danger for most people, is that they enter a fight not expecting to be hurt. When they are, they shut down. They stop fighting and, in a gunfight, they die. You say that you do not expect to take a hit in a CQB gunfight, but it might happen. If it does, what are you going to do? This is my point. You train to win the fight. Being able to draw and fire on the move is nearly essential to winning the fight with a minimum of damage. Most of the people who carry a defensive firearm don't do that, nor will they ever be able to do that. It is increadibly hard to hit an 8" target from 10' reliably while moving, and requires a lot of initial training and regular refresher training to maintain the skill. At close range, the average person will likely be limited to drawing his weapon while standing there flatfooted and opening fire upon his opponent, shooting until his weapon is dry. Therefor, the chances of taking a hit are significantly increased. So, to win through to the other side, the average urban gunslinger can not afford to think about survival, only about winning.

I agree that the faster you can clear leather and engage your adversary the better. I am afraid that expectations of coming through a close encounter with a gun toting adversary, with no injuries, are low. In a gunfight, I don't think about living or dying. I allow my training to dictate my tactical responses and my only goal is to be the last man standing, by any means necessary. This is made possible by mental conditioning. I will prevail. There is no other option.
The point of the tong story was to relate that BG's with guns can miss at very close range, a lot.

I didn't take from your first post that you were staring down the barrel of an aggressors gun, but that the aggressor was making a move to draw a gun or knife [ or weapon ]. If you are faced with already staring into the barrel of a firearm, I don't think the option of drawing your own firearm is an option at all unless something changes that scenario. In this regard, I agree with you that if you draw against a drawn gun, your chances of taking damage are very high.

In my own experience, any thought of taking damage didn't occur at the time. I was too busy working on a solution. Like yourself, I expect my training to dictate a situational response, only focusing on the problem at hand with no time to think about taking damage [ that may create hesitation at the wrong time ]. When I've encountered knives, I did expect to take damage. I agree, getting hit is always a possibility in any gun battle at any distance, but there is no expectation of taking a hit/s beforehand. I also agree that once you are IN IT, you have to see it through to the end one way or the other. That mindset is in line with yours as well, but IMO, it doesn't have to coincide with the idea of accepting I'm going to take damage.

I also agree that "Being able to draw and fire on the move is nearly essential to winning the fight with a minimum of damage. Most of the people who carry a defensive firearm don't do that, nor will they ever be able to do that" and I also agree that "It is increadibly hard to hit an 8" target from 10' reliably while moving".

An 8" target is a head shot, and unless the guy is sniping me from cover, I have a total surface area of the upper torso to make hits while moving that covers some 14" wide by 18" long. At 10 feet on the run, that's not all that difficult with proper training. To set a limit of just 8" to hit at 10 feet on the run is, IMO, unrealistic for the streets. The 14x18" area is going to be more realistic and my only goal is to put shots into his torso and keep putting them there while moving.

I have students who regularly can hit the torso plates on a flat out run at 10 feet using threat focused skills they've only been shown hours before. As an example, I'd cite two students recitations on this very subject:

First, from a firearms training officer with the San Jose, Ca police dept [ 1400+ officers ] on 3/27/06

"Now the fun part, running flat-out while shooting. I know what your thinking, can't be done, rightt? W R O N G! If I can do it, you can do it. You must not think about what you are doing...just concentrate on the threat, and get your handgun reference point, your mind and body will do the rest.

I hit 100% A zone hits on a lateral run two handed, and 98% hits one handed at 15'."


Second student, his name is Pete from the Philly area. Here's a picture of Pete running flat out by me as he whacks the steel moving laterally 15 feet from the plates.

BEING TOTALLY CONCIOUSLY FOCUSED ON THE THE THREAT\S WHILE NATURALLY MOVING IN ANY DIRECTION, AS FAST AS YOUR BODY WILL ALLOW ,YET GETTING ACCURATE , SUPER FAST HITS ON THE THREATS BEFORE THEY CAN CONSIOUSLY GET ANY ON YOU.

He had come some 180 yds when the picture was taken at a flat out run. Obviously breathing pretty heavy by then, he whacked the first plate 2 for 2, and the second plate 2 out of 3 shots fired.

It's not difficult with training, but I also agree with you that very few are going to have the training when they need it unfortunately, so again we agree that most will not be successful in the own defense. Gun fighting is a mental mans/womans game. It requires more than just physical skills. You have to be able to solve problems presented on the fly [ sorta speak ] and have enough skills at your disposal to solve the problem in the most efficient manner. You can't do that until you get the gun operational, and the faster you can do that subconsciously, the sooner you can start to solve the problem.

Brownie
 

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I was not trying to diminish the need for a quick and effective deployment of a defensive firearm. My aim, no pun intended, was to point out that in the majority of armed confrontations where a person would have to draw and fire his weapon, his adversary will already have his deployed. You are already at a disadvantage. In a situation where you are dealing with an opponent who has not deployed a weapon, there are a variety of actions that can be taken to either avoid the confrontation or place yourself in a tactical position more favorable to you.

As for tactical handgun training and practice, it is difficult for the average citizen to obtain. Especially if you live in an urban area. Most range facilities do not allow run and gun training, for liability reasons. That is why your training program is so welcome. It allows ordinary people to learn at least rudimentary defensive firearms techniques.

In a fist fight, you are more than likely going to get hit. In a knife fight, you will more than likely get cut. And, in a gunfight, you are likely to get shot. If that shot does not kill you immediately, and it likely will not, you continue fighting until you have won. I want people who are training for a deadly self defense situation to train themselves mentally. To be focused on winning the fight, not worrying about being injured. Because their opponent may have the same mindset. In that case, the one who puts the most high velocity metal into a vital area the quickest will likely win. That is where speed and accuracy comes in. On the bright side, I have carried a weapon for the last 35 years and have only had to use it professionally. So, the average CCP holder will very likely never have to deploy his ot her weapon. But if they do, they have to realize that, at that point, they have to win the fight, no matter the cost.
 

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Good times from closed front cover garment Standby :thumsup Brownie
Thank you sir, your times are not to shabby either!..:thumsup

I think we are all agreeing....speed and accuracy are relative to many variables, such as the individual skills, light, range, number of assailants, body position, gun location, mindset, situation awareness etc etc.....fighting with a gun is not the same as shooting at the range (we know that and we accept that) :thumsup.....now we need to train using creative drills to try to mitigate the variables as much as possible.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
I dont disagree with anything anyone has posted so far. Everything is dependent on time and distance..Period..What Brownie and I advocate is speed, speed, speed..in order to develop that, we point shoot..I know, I know it goes against the grain of most major schools and all Law enforcement training. Everybody wants to train MT or Isosceles or Weaver.. Problem with that is you will never stand still, you will never get squared up, you will never see the sights nor will you get both hands on the gun..NOT at 3-10 foot where most gunfights happen in the 3-5 seconds it takes to end it by most accounts with civilians. What I have found is that most LEO's and ex-military train in the tactics they have learned in those particular disciplines..they dont work for civilians. Its always MT, MT, MT, front site press, front site press..blah blah blah..Works great in IDPA or IPSC not on the street..BTDT.

I will admit some schools/trainers are coming around but its a long hard road to get rid of a mindset that has been embedded in the gun culture for 50yrs now. There is a place for or should I say a distance to get up on sight. However as all of us agree that most will happen at bad breath distance, in low light with a weapon already drawn on us we only have 2 choices..either we submit or we fight.. Dependent upon our training will determine our response and how successful we will be. The speed with which you respond should you decide to fight will be critical to your survival and winning the fight.

As I mentioned in the first post..if it takes you 4 seconds to get the first shot off you probably lost the fight. If you try to get a sight picture, you probably lost the fight, especially within that 3 meter distance we are talking about...

If we all train in getting the attacker off of us from the beginning, we approach it in building block terms for civilians, then we need hand to hand self defense, weapon take aways, edged weapon defense, then speed on draw to first shot. Its all about creating time and distance, knowing when to move in and when to move away..

I do disagree however with the win at all cost attitude..I've had it and lost fights, not because of it but because I ran into someone better than me..then again, I won some or so some thought but neither of us won..In reality there are never any winners in a fight unless its competition and somebody is keeping score, in a fight to the death there are only survivors..I did they didnt..I still carry the scars..Attitude is good but it alone wont be enough. If anyone has read some of my posts on here they know I preach Mindset, mindset mindset..add the physical skills and now we have a person that most likely will be able to engage and then walk away from a violent confrontation and live another day.
 
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