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Skills to be lost to the Future
I am winding down from teaching Threat Focus and Quick [email protected] classes…..Brownie and I am getting older…. It is a shame to let the skills that have been handed down for decades and fought for hard as a reliable way to defend yourself….talking with Brownie recently….. We have given those skills to a lot of students…..and a lot of them excelled in the skills….but, our problem is ….who can do remedial ….. teach the ones that need help to understand what they are doing wrong and correct their problem…. Otherwise the whole thing gets watered down to just going thru a class and not getting the skills in a proper manner… That is not what we have worked so hard for many years on to prove the Naysayers wrong…
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I agree and have spoken of this before. I really would hate to see these skills go away. Somebody well versed in these skills needs to step up and keep them alive for future generations. There are a few who, imo, can do this. I hope it can happen.
I'm of the opinion that many students of Ricks and my own TF pistol courses can utilize the skills on the streets effectively.
Transferring those skills to others could be accomplished by one who has a full command of the WW2 skills without a problem. However, if that person doesn't have the knowledge to remedial students who are struggling with a particular skill, it's for naught.
I'm aware of two instructors, one no longer posts here, who thought they could teach the threat focused skills simply because they could use them. The one no longer training couldn't remedial worth crap, and the students suffered. I know, two of them approached me in one of my courses in Fla whining about him and their not getting in a full day what I gave them in the first 1.5 hours before a break the first day.
The other still trains people in what HE believes to be threat focused WW2 skills. He's never been formally trained in them, decides he can teach them [ cause the train left the station and he saw he could make money on the skills ], offers them up to unsuspecting students who then believe they're good to go. They are not, and this guy got his intro to the skills by the first instructor mentioned, and he was NEVER formally trained by anyone in the WW2 skills either. So, it was like the blind leading the blind. They have a student that's struggling, they don't have the first clue on how to remedial that student and get them up to speed.
Historically, we can look back to the 60's when the US Army adopted McDaniel's instinct shooting which they renamed Quick Kill rifle. They adopted it because it worked, and within under 3 years, those trainers who'd trained other trainers had changed the skill, thinking they could make it better. It didn't make it better, it made it ineffective and the military dropped the program.
There's a few other trainers who've tried to adopt their own WW2 TF courses just to jump on the bandwagon and make the money by offering same. They're no longer training others in those skills either. Ya know why? They didn't have a F-ing clue about how to impart the skills because they hadn't been formally trained in them either. They just winged it until students caught on to their charlatan BS and stopped signing up for that course.
There's just TWO people who offer training in these skills left among us. One just retired from law enforcement the other worked with Applegate extensively, and I have NO idea how much they are or will continue to offer the training and in venues. Take their TF pistol course, you'll get the same skills students got from myself and Rick, but you'll likely have to travel to attend one. It'll be worth it, I've co-trained with him in a few venues, he's not only got the talent to impart them, he knows them inside and out and can remedial every bit as good as I've been able to.
I was a sponge for skills for decades. I took every opportunity to train with the best. WerBell's [ SIONICS ] no longer with us. Keating out of Wash. state, no longer traveling to train others are two prime examples. If ya didn't take the opportunity to train with some of us across the US while we offered the training, you're sheet out of luck for the most part.
The charlatans will always be there offering their rendition of what they think they know as WW2 pistol combatives. The skills will be and have been diluted by these people for some time.
So my suggestion is, if you want the skills, don't seek out the charlatan here who's still offering them, you're really too late to gain the knowledge of the tutelage of the guys who were touched by the masters themselves. As we know, the more it's passed from one to another instructor, the more diluted the skills become [ usually ].
I taught skills EXACTLY the way the masters taught me. I didn't deviate, didn't try to improve on them in any way. Over the years, I offered just two students a chance to be a protege' and pick up where I'd be leaving off. Neither were interested but they sure had the talent and would have been great remedial trainers. It's coming to an end, for some of us, it already has.
I was considered a good instructor by most students. But what made me a great instructor was my ability to remedial on the fly. As an example, the USAF PJ's had a Lt. who had just attended 6 week long schools and still couldn't shoot, he was their worst shooter. Having discovered this, I had them take a 10 minute break, I pulled the Lt. aside and had him show me his handhold, trigger control [ no firing ]. I made several corrections to his hand hold and introduced him to the convulsive grip, and we got back on the range. I asked for their best shooter to step forward, he's going to shoot against the Lt. After 2 mags, the Lt's target looked every bit as good as their best shooter. It's the remedial that makes a great instructor, and the two I mentioned above didn't have that remedial skills ability. They're failures as instructors go, none of my instructors were deficient in their remedial skills either.
Don't seek just anyone offering the WW2 core skills [ commonly known here as threat focused skills ]. Seek someone who has the background, and there's few of them out there today.
Honorable mention of bttbbob, he can impart the skills, and knows how to remedial. He was also touched by one of the masters.
Transferring those skills to others could be accomplished by one who has a full command of the WW2 skills without a problem. However, if that person doesn't have the knowledge to remedial students who are struggling with a particular skill, it's for naught.
I'm aware of two instructors, one no longer posts here, who thought they could teach the threat focused skills simply because they could use them. The one no longer training couldn't remedial worth crap, and the students suffered. I know, two of them approached me in one of my courses in Fla whining about him and their not getting in a full day what I gave them in the first 1.5 hours before a break the first day.
The other still trains people in what HE believes to be threat focused WW2 skills. He's never been formally trained in them, decides he can teach them [ cause the train left the station and he saw he could make money on the skills ], offers them up to unsuspecting students who then believe they're good to go. They are not, and this guy got his intro to the skills by the first instructor mentioned, and he was NEVER formally trained by anyone in the WW2 skills either. So, it was like the blind leading the blind. They have a student that's struggling, they don't have the first clue on how to remedial that student and get them up to speed.
Historically, we can look back to the 60's when the US Army adopted McDaniel's instinct shooting which they renamed Quick Kill rifle. They adopted it because it worked, and within under 3 years, those trainers who'd trained other trainers had changed the skill, thinking they could make it better. It didn't make it better, it made it ineffective and the military dropped the program.
There's a few other trainers who've tried to adopt their own WW2 TF courses just to jump on the bandwagon and make the money by offering same. They're no longer training others in those skills either. Ya know why? They didn't have a F-ing clue about how to impart the skills because they hadn't been formally trained in them either. They just winged it until students caught on to their charlatan BS and stopped signing up for that course.
There's just TWO people who offer training in these skills left among us. One just retired from law enforcement the other worked with Applegate extensively, and I have NO idea how much they are or will continue to offer the training and in venues. Take their TF pistol course, you'll get the same skills students got from myself and Rick, but you'll likely have to travel to attend one. It'll be worth it, I've co-trained with him in a few venues, he's not only got the talent to impart them, he knows them inside and out and can remedial every bit as good as I've been able to.
I was a sponge for skills for decades. I took every opportunity to train with the best. WerBell's [ SIONICS ] no longer with us. Keating out of Wash. state, no longer traveling to train others are two prime examples. If ya didn't take the opportunity to train with some of us across the US while we offered the training, you're sheet out of luck for the most part.
The charlatans will always be there offering their rendition of what they think they know as WW2 pistol combatives. The skills will be and have been diluted by these people for some time.
So my suggestion is, if you want the skills, don't seek out the charlatan here who's still offering them, you're really too late to gain the knowledge of the tutelage of the guys who were touched by the masters themselves. As we know, the more it's passed from one to another instructor, the more diluted the skills become [ usually ].
I taught skills EXACTLY the way the masters taught me. I didn't deviate, didn't try to improve on them in any way. Over the years, I offered just two students a chance to be a protege' and pick up where I'd be leaving off. Neither were interested but they sure had the talent and would have been great remedial trainers. It's coming to an end, for some of us, it already has.
I was considered a good instructor by most students. But what made me a great instructor was my ability to remedial on the fly. As an example, the USAF PJ's had a Lt. who had just attended 6 week long schools and still couldn't shoot, he was their worst shooter. Having discovered this, I had them take a 10 minute break, I pulled the Lt. aside and had him show me his handhold, trigger control [ no firing ]. I made several corrections to his hand hold and introduced him to the convulsive grip, and we got back on the range. I asked for their best shooter to step forward, he's going to shoot against the Lt. After 2 mags, the Lt's target looked every bit as good as their best shooter. It's the remedial that makes a great instructor, and the two I mentioned above didn't have that remedial skills ability. They're failures as instructors go, none of my instructors were deficient in their remedial skills either.
Don't seek just anyone offering the WW2 core skills [ commonly known here as threat focused skills ]. Seek someone who has the background, and there's few of them out there today.
Honorable mention of bttbbob, he can impart the skills, and knows how to remedial. He was also touched by one of the masters.
Some can learn. Some can teach. Then you have a few that do both exceptionally well. And yes, I consider you to be a master at both.I'm of the opinion that many students of Ricks and my own TF pistol courses can utilize the skills on the streets effectively.
Transferring those skills to others could be accomplished by one who has a full command of the WW2 skills without a problem. However, if that person doesn't have the knowledge to remedial students who are struggling with a particular skill, it's for naught.
I'm aware of two instructors, one no longer posts here, who thought they could teach the threat focused skills simply because they could use them. The one no longer training couldn't remedial worth crap, and the students suffered. I know, two of them approached me in one of my courses in Fla whining about him and their not getting in a full day what I gave them in the first 1.5 hours before a break the first day.
The other still trains people in what HE believes to be threat focused WW2 skills. He's never been formally trained in them, decides he can teach them [ cause the train left the station and he saw he could make money on the skills ], offers them up to unsuspecting students who then believe they're good to go. They are not, and this guy got his intro to the skills by the first instructor mentioned, and he was NEVER formally trained by anyone in the WW2 skills either. So, it was like the blind leading the blind. They have a student that's struggling, they don't have the first clue on how to remedial that student and get them up to speed.
Historically, we can look back to the 60's when the US Army adopted McDaniel's instinct shooting which they renamed Quick Kill rifle. They adopted it because it worked, and within under 3 years, those trainers who'd trained other trainers had changed the skill, thinking they could make it better. It didn't make it better, it made it ineffective and the military dropped the program.
There's a few other trainers who've tried to adopt their own WW2 TF courses just to jump on the bandwagon and make the money by offering same. They're no longer training others in those skills either. Ya know why? They didn't have a F-ing clue about how to impart the skills because they hadn't been formally trained in them either. They just winged it until students caught on to their charlatan BS and stopped signing up for that course.
There's just TWO people who offer training in these skills left among us. One just retired from law enforcement the other worked with Applegate extensively, and I have NO idea how much they are or will continue to offer the training and in venues. Take their TF pistol course, you'll get the same skills students got from myself and Rick, but you'll likely have to travel to attend one. It'll be worth it, I've co-trained with him in a few venues, he's not only got the talent to impart them, he knows them inside and out and can remedial every bit as good as I've been able to.
I was a sponge for skills for decades. I took every opportunity to train with the best. WerBell's [ SIONICS ] no longer with us. Keating out of Wash. state, no longer traveling to train others are two prime examples. If ya didn't take the opportunity to train with some of us across the US while we offered the training, you're sheet out of luck for the most part.
The charlatans will always be there offering their rendition of what they think they know as WW2 pistol combatives. The skills will be and have been diluted by these people for some time.
So my suggestion is, if you want the skills, don't seek out the charlatan here who's still offering them, you're really too late to gain the knowledge of the tutelage of the guys who were touched by the masters themselves. As we know, the more it's passed from one to another instructor, the more diluted the skills become [ usually ].
I taught skills EXACTLY the way the masters taught me. I didn't deviate, didn't try to improve on them in any way. Over the years, I offered just two students a chance to be a protege' and pick up where I'd be leaving off. Neither were interested but they sure had the talent and would have been great remedial trainers. It's coming to an end, for some of us, it already has.
Honorable mention of bttbbob, he can impart the skills, and knows how to remedial. He was also touched by one of the masters.
Thanks for your kind thoughts sirSome can learn. Some can teach. Then you have a few that do both exceptionally well. And yes, I consider you to be a master at both.
I've thought about this for a few years. I understand the basics of the skills and can show people those basics. But I don't have the knowledge or breathe of skills to take on what you, Rick, and Bob do.
Also I don't have the background to go with the skills. I don't want to be just a guy with an NRA instructor ticket pretending to be someone from the military.
What concerns me more is that it appears that not only are the WW2 skills now disappearing, the hand to hand and knife training is gone too. No one seems to be teaching those at all on the level that they were in the 70s and 80s.
Also I don't have the background to go with the skills. I don't want to be just a guy with an NRA instructor ticket pretending to be someone from the military.
What concerns me more is that it appears that not only are the WW2 skills now disappearing, the hand to hand and knife training is gone too. No one seems to be teaching those at all on the level that they were in the 70s and 80s.
Yeah, I agree. I am on the downhill side of a mediocre career. When I go, there are a few instructors that can pass it on. But how much longer will I do it? I dunno.
There's a few still out there, but they rarely travel and you'd have to seek them out Andy. I really made it easy for members coming to Fla all those years. None of my courses were held in my state, I had to travel all over the US to gain the skills.I've thought about this for a few years. I understand the basics of the skills and can show people those basics. But I don't have the knowledge or breathe of skills to take on what you, Rick, and Bob do.
Also I don't have the background to go with the skills. I don't want to be just a guy with an NRA instructor ticket pretending to be someone from the military.
You could teach the skills far better than the charlatans I mentioned. It would be the remedial skills that would put you in good standing. No mil experience necessary, though one of them above stands on his mil service [ but having been asked point blank numerous times, that information is still not forthcoming ]. So he broke in the biz on his STATED mil background. Nothing I've seen coming out of his courses has impressed me even a little bit. I question and always have questioned his actual mil background.
What concerns me more is that it appears that not only are the WW2 skills now disappearing, the hand to hand and knife training is gone too. No one seems to be teaching those at all on the level that they were in the 70s and 80s.
Well; I’m always willing to help out if any of the Masters decide to do another TFP course down here.
I’ve been able to help new shooters by watching them shoot, and identifying improvements they need to make (usually stance, grip, trigger control, and body positioning; or a combination thereof); but I certainly don’t consider myself in any way a shooting instructor.
I’ve been able to help new shooters by watching them shoot, and identifying improvements they need to make (usually stance, grip, trigger control, and body positioning; or a combination thereof); but I certainly don’t consider myself in any way a shooting instructor.
The training industry in general has been working hard for the last however many years to discredit, debunk, delegitimatize and otherwise destroy point-shooting as a legitimate approach. Those efforts have been nearly universally successful. The reason for this, I believe is fundamental. A skilled practitioner of sighted fire, no matter how fast out of the holster or how accurate to a target at seven to twenty-five yards on an A-zone or B8 target, cannot beat a skilled point shooter at closer distances. If you can't beat them, discredit them.
Brownie has experienced the wrath of the FSP and now red dot guys throughout his entire career of teaching and utilizing the techniques associated with his approach. I'm sure the rest of you have to some degree, as well. They can't beat a skilled point-shooter at point-shooting distances, so they have to delegitimize the techniques in order prove the superiority of their own. The drawing from surrender/interview position is one example of the many lengths they have gone to. Another is the seven yards and out positioning of targets. They set the rules of their particular game, learn them well, and then discount all other approaches.
As fast and as accurate as even the best are in the gaming industry, few if any would fare well at six feet away reacting to a skilled point shooter not abiding by their rules...
Brownie has experienced the wrath of the FSP and now red dot guys throughout his entire career of teaching and utilizing the techniques associated with his approach. I'm sure the rest of you have to some degree, as well. They can't beat a skilled point-shooter at point-shooting distances, so they have to delegitimize the techniques in order prove the superiority of their own. The drawing from surrender/interview position is one example of the many lengths they have gone to. Another is the seven yards and out positioning of targets. They set the rules of their particular game, learn them well, and then discount all other approaches.
As fast and as accurate as even the best are in the gaming industry, few if any would fare well at six feet away reacting to a skilled point shooter not abiding by their rules...
Very well stated, sir!The training industry in general has been working hard for the last however many years to discredit, debunk, delegitimatize and otherwise destroy point-shooting as a legitimate approach. Those efforts have been nearly universally successful. The reason for this, I believe is fundamental. A skilled practitioner of sighted fire, no matter how fast out of the holster or how accurate to a target at seven to twenty-five yards on an A-zone or B8 target, cannot beat a skilled point shooter at closer distances. If you can't beat them, discredit them.
Brownie has experienced the wrath of the FSP and now red dot guys throughout his entire career of teaching and utilizing the techniques associated with his approach. I'm sure the rest of you have to some degree, as well. They can't beat a skilled point-shooter at point-shooting distances, so they have to delegitimize the techniques in order prove the superiority of their own. The drawing from surrender/interview position is one example of the many lengths they have gone to. Another is the seven yards and out positioning of targets. They set the rules of their particular game, learn them well, and then discount all other approaches.
As fast and as accurate as even the best are in the gaming industry, few if any would fare well at six feet away reacting to a skilled point shooter not abiding by their rules...
Well we all have a responsibility to pass these things on. I gave a young associate (work) who was going into the police academy an intro to these skills prior to his stint in the academy. I suggested he take the one day class from Xblue and can say today he is on patrol in Pt St Lucy on his own. With a first name like Colt that was his destiny. Smart, young, strong, the kind a person you would want to wear a badge……last weekend i gave the concealed carry course to a 25 year old who mother i taught a few years ago. This weekend he gets the range portion and those skills passed to me by brownie. His uncles are on duty special forces as their father was back in the 70’s. He started high school as a lib and now is catching on to what’s going on……i taught the gals at work some of these skills and the concealed class and they were pretty liberal yet oopen to learning about firearms….i did it all for free…i can see beerhunter taking the reigns on this now he is retired……………………!!!! I would certainly be there to RO those classes……..and to take them
…………!!!! I would certainly be there to RO those classes……..and to take them
Always considered myself a student more than a teacher at most anything. I’m fortunate to have a range in my yard and practice a few times a week. But sd/shooting skills are like the golf swing, over time your angles change for whatever reason and you need a keen eye to get back on track. My sons have the basics, but I’m hoping to fly out to Az and have them correctly trained by Brownie.
I volunteer Caleb to be the target
Evidently, if we use Caleb's guns, he'll be totally fine.I volunteer Caleb to be the target
Both of you can go play in traffic.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ok fine I’ll do it. We can arrange zoom training so I can do it from home. Although I must insist on adding a key skill which I think will be vital to my curriculum. It’s called FSTF, From Sofa Threat Focused. It’s not easy to do so most of the class will be dedicated to that. I’ll demonstrate drawing from concealment while laying down from multiple positions. Proper places to stash one and which pillows to use. Key situations like getting up for a snack will be discussed and what one should do with their FSTF weapons while doing that. Multiple positions weak handed will also be shown to better facilitate strong side remote control use. I think maybe a one day 6 hour class for $1000 per student is fair. I need a minimum of 20 students. Additional charges may be applied without consent if there is an important sporting event running same time.
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