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If only 100-200 times was all it took to gain REAL speed. Number of repetitions for muscle memory gained? Opinions across the board are 3-5,000 reps done exactly the same way if it's a new skill. Thing is, doing it the same way at the same deliberate slow pace may perfect that draw stroke, but then one has to contend with developing the fast twitch muscles to accomplish speed.

Plenty of students will confirm, the first time they were introduced to the scoop draw, none of them needed 1-200 draw strokes to learn the uncovering of the garment and drawing with speed. Maybe it may have taken someone a dozen times, maybe, but we had people shooting 1 second from draw with the scoop draw in a matter of a few mags, if that.

One mans fast is another mans slow. But there's no question that slow is slow whether it's smooth or not. And fast is fast whether it's smooth or not. .90-1.1 seconds from concealed is fast for me, 1.25-1.75 seconds from concealed is slow for me. There's few people who will get to a 1 second draw stroke from concealed practicing deliberate 4 count draw strokes.

Still like this one-- speed is fine but accuracy is final. Sounds like he didn't believe one could have both, and we know plenty of people here who have both. ;)
And you will never get fast if you are not smooth in grip, draw and presentation. I don’t give a rhats azz who you are. You, me or God.
 

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And you will never get fast if you are not smooth in grip, draw and presentation. I don’t give a rhats azz who you are. You, me or God.
Smooth is a fairly subjective concept. Which brings us back to slow is slow, and fast is fast. Smooth may be both, or neither.
 
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Smooth is a fairly subjective concept. Which brings us back to slow is slow, and fast is fast. Smooth may be both, or neither.
Smooth is not subjective. You either are slick in your grip, draw and presentation or you are not. It is that simple. If you are not smooth in your grip, draw and presentation, you will never be fast. Real simple.
 

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Smooth is not subjective. You either are slick in your grip, draw and presentation or you are not. It is that simple. If you are not smooth in your grip, draw and presentation, you will never be fast. Real simple.
It's not necessarily an either/or equation. I'm neither smooth nor slick in my presentation, just as an example. My speed and accuracy are good enough to satisfy my hopes and expectations.
 

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30 shots fired in 30 seconds at the OK Corral. Earp, his two brothers and Doc Holiday [ 4 ] fired on 5 "cowboys" from a distance that started at 6 feet. Three cowboys died of the 5 there.

Wyatt's attributed quote "Fast is fine, but accuracy is final. In a gun fight... You need to take your time in a hurry." seems to be in question when analyzed. Accuracy is final? He apparently wasn't accurate enough that day to take more men down at near spitting distance. Was it because he hurried his shots and didn't follow his own quoted mindset?

Who can say, but we can say this. He was neither fast nor accurate that day from historical record. He shot Frank McLaury and Billy Clanton. Clanton took two hits from Wyatt, one in the chest and one in the arm. He wounded McLaury in the stomach but McLaury continued to fight on, though he eventually died.

Doc was known as a killer, Wyatt was known for his intestinal fortitude [ but not for his superb gun skills ]. Hard to believe these men weren't accurate enough at 6-10 feet to put all 5 of them down, but they weren't and didn't.

As to my other response to you, wasn't trying to be argumentative. There's a few ways to gain speed, the slow way or the way I came to gain speed both in drawing and trigger finger speed.
Which raises a different question entirely: the importance of Warrior Mindset.

From a historical perspective, isn't what is more important that he\they were faster and more accurate than their opponents? Everybody sucked, but the ones that sucked worse lost? While that is a piss poor definition of 'good enough', it is very often the reality, from my perspective even in modern days.

It's always amazed me how many bullets start to fly in gang on gang violence or police vs criminal.

As regards his shooting abilities, nothing is well documented about his time in law enforcement in Wichita, at Dodge City, as a Wells Fargo Guard, a US Marshal ...

He didn't though show up at the O.K. Corral a combat virgin.

For that specific quote - it made me wonder if he was a slow time guy. I'll be honest though, I didn't pick it because I thought he was an excellent shooter. I picked the quote because it spoke of the need for accuracy and speed.

I didn't think you were argumentative. I come from a different perspective, I'm a new kid on the block, and I believe the devil is always in the details.

That 'old mantra' used correctly has saved lives and cost the lives of our foes. Knowing that for a fact makes 'mindless' objection touchy for me. That's not what you were\are doing, and I thank you for that.
 

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Great post sir. It was just the way I evolved with the speed. I found shooting past comfort levels [ speed ] and ignoring hits [ try to make them of course at the same time ] brought more fast to the fast twitch muscles, then I could throttle back a tad and I had the accuracy back but had gained some speed.

The above after researching fast twitch muscle development. Seemed to make sense and the results verified that's how fast twitch muscles can be developed much quicker than slowly increasing speed but always concerned about accuracy. It actually slows the progress of gaining speed, but as you mention, that's how most people learn to pick up some speed.

It's all good sir.

Post 11 sir.
I've never trained in an environment or had enough money where 'wasting' ammunition was allowed. I know that is not what you were doing. But no hit on paper was failure.

You start with hits on paper and work speed UP until you are no longer '8 ring' or CNS. 'Slow and smooth' means making sure there is no or as little wasted motion or movement as possible. Once you start moving faster you or the 'instructor' will notice or provide feed back of waste, and then keep pushing until you reach your individual personal limit, which is always a crap load faster than you think it is.

"The mind is the limiting factor"

The hits on paper or gong also provides instant gratification and starts instilling confidence and trust at the beginning, though gophering of any kind is always a no-no.

I'll be host though, your way sounds like the faster way to get to exactly the same goal in a lot of ways.
 

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Discussion Starter · #67 ·
Which raises a different question entirely: the importance of Warrior Mindset.

Warrior mindset first developed in 1969, Parris Island. Practical application RVN 1970. Further developed at SIONICS in 1981, Practical application missions OCONUS rescuing hostages. Further developed on the streets of minority communities projects. Practical application damn near every day for near 30 years.

From a historical perspective, isn't what is more important that he\they were faster and more accurate than their opponents? Everybody sucked, but the ones that sucked worse lost? While that is a piss poor definition of 'good enough', it is very often the reality, from my perspective even in modern days.

"It isn't always being fast or even accurate that counts. It's being willing. I found out early that most men, regardless of cause or need, aren't willing. They blink an eye or draw a breath before they pull the trigger." JB Books

It's always amazed me how many bullets start to fly in gang on gang violence or police vs criminal.

Chinese tong rival gangs in Boston got into one night when two rival gangs met on the sidewalk. From a starting distance of 10-12 feet, 6-8 members on each side opened up on each other. No hits on bodies, NOT ONE hit. Subsequently, the head of the Tong group run by Stephen Tze contacts his atty asking if he knew where his guys could get some training. I worked for his atty, and was hired to train several of their members over the course of 7-10 days, one at a time at night on my club range on the south shore.

As regards his shooting abilities, nothing is well documented about his time in law enforcement in Wichita, at Dodge City, as a Wells Fargo Guard, a US Marshal ...

He didn't though show up at the O.K. Corral a combat virgin.

For that specific quote - it made me wonder if he was a slow time guy. I'll be honest though, I didn't pick it because I thought he was an excellent shooter. I picked the quote because it spoke of the need for accuracy and speed.

I didn't think you were argumentative. I come from a different perspective, I'm a new kid on the block, and I believe the devil is always in the details.

That 'old mantra' used correctly has saved lives and cost the lives of our foes. Knowing that for a fact makes 'mindless' objection touchy for me. That's not what you were\are doing, and I thank you for that.
[/QUOTE]

see bolded
 

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As far as I know, the "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" comes from auto racing. At least that's where I learned it. And, there is something to the adage.

But, then again... A famous quote from Mario Andretti is: "If everything is under control, you're not going fast enough."
 

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I spent about a year in an army hospital in the next bed to a guy who was a Wyatt Earp historian. He told me more about Wyatt Earp than I cared to hear. One of the things I remember most over all the stories is that he told me that Earp was the “Master of back shooting and Dry Gulching” He told me that Earp took every advantage he could to cheat, confuse and win. He told me that Wyatt was not a superior marksman but had stones of steel in a gun fight.
 

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2:25 nothing about slow or fast, only smooth. :cool:

 

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I spent about a year in an army hospital in the next bed to a guy who was a Wyatt Earp historian. He told me more about Wyatt Earp than I cared to hear. One of the things I remember most over all the stories is that he told me that Earp was the “Master of back shooting and Dry Gulching” He told me that Earp took every advantage he could to cheat, confuse and win. He told me that Wyatt was not a superior marksman but had stones of steel in a gun fight.
"Always cheat; always win. If you walk away, it was a fair fight. The only unfair fight is the one you lose"

'None of us are training to be 'fair' and the definition of 'unfair' comes from the first loser.'

No idea how long the first quote has been around. The second is roughly from a SEAL I was taking to once, but that doesn't automatically make him wrong :)

it fascinates me how many different ways we have figured out to try to describe the same concept.
 

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I spent about a year in an army hospital in the next bed to a guy who was a Wyatt Earp historian. He told me more about Wyatt Earp than I cared to hear. One of the things I remember most over all the stories is that he told me that Earp was the “Master of back shooting and Dry Gulching” He told me that Earp took every advantage he could to cheat, confuse and win. He told me that Wyatt was not a superior marksman but had stones of steel in a gun fight.
if you fight fair your tactics suck...
 

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i used to pull penalties in idpa with good times...other guys would tell me if i adhered to the rules i would score better...my response was "i am here to practice survival. if i adhere to the rules i might not."...it was usually received well...

one night shoot scenario we were required to shoot from cover then move from cover to cover exposed to a shooter and take them from cover...i unloaded a mag moving from cover to cover...the rso stated i would be penalized for shooting while not behind cover...i replied "i was behind cover."...the rso asked how i figured....i told them i was moving behind a wall of bullets...would you be nuts enough to shoot at me while i was unloading on you while moving and i would be crazy to run in front of a shooter and wait?!"...they said "i'll give that to you"...
 

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30 shots fired in 30 seconds at the OK Corral. Earp, his two brothers and Doc Holiday [ 4 ] fired on 5 "cowboys" from a distance that started at 6 feet. Three cowboys died of the 5 there.

Wyatt's attributed quote "Fast is fine, but accuracy is final. In a gun fight... You need to take your time in a hurry." seems to be in question when analyzed. Accuracy is final? He apparently wasn't accurate enough that day to take more men down at near spitting distance. Was it because he hurried his shots and didn't follow his own quoted mindset?

Who can say, but we can say this. He was neither fast nor accurate that day from historical record. He shot Frank McLaury and Billy Clanton. Clanton took two hits from Wyatt, one in the chest and one in the arm. He wounded McLaury in the stomach but McLaury continued to fight on, though he eventually died.

Doc was known as a killer, Wyatt was known for his intestinal fortitude [ but not for his superb gun skills ]. Hard to believe these men weren't accurate enough at 6-10 feet to put all 5 of them down, but they weren't and didn't.

As to my other response to you, wasn't trying to be argumentative. There's a few ways to gain speed, the slow way or the way I came to gain speed both in drawing and trigger finger speed.
You might well have given Wyatt credit for two hits he didn't actually score. There have been multiple accounts of the fight, for sure. The only consistent report that I've seen is that the shooting started when Wyatt did his cocked, hand-on-gun pocket draw from a tricked out coat pocket and gut shot Frank. Frank took full advantage of his dead man's ten seconds, as did Billy Clanton. Both kept firing until empty after receiving debilitating hits.
 

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Discussion Starter · #76 ·
i used to pull penalties in idpa with good times...other guys would tell me if i adhered to the rules i would score better...my response was "i am here to practice survival. if i adhere to the rules i might not."...it was usually received well...

one night shoot scenario we were required to shoot from cover then move from cover to cover exposed to a shooter and take them from cover...i unloaded a mag moving from cover to cover...the rso stated i would be penalized for shooting while not behind cover...i replied "i was behind cover."...the rso asked how i figured....i told them i was moving behind a wall of bullets...would you be nuts enough to shoot at me while i was unloading on you while moving and i would be crazy to run in front of a shooter and wait?!"...they said "i'll give that to you"...
One of the reasons I wouldn't play the game of ipsc or idpa. Bad tactics ingrained on the range create bad tactics on the streets.
 

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One of the reasons I wouldn't play the game of ipsc or idpa. Bad tactics ingrained on the range create bad tactics on the streets.
all i saw was an opportunity to move like hell while shooting...it was rare i could get a berm to myself at the range...this was a sure thing...penalties be damned...
 

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Discussion Starter · #79 ·
all i saw was an opportunity to move like hell while shooting...it was rare i could get a berm to myself at the range...this was a sure thing...penalties be damned...
I've seen you move like hell. Impressive. I've seen you unload on a threat, impressive as well sir.
 

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It's not necessarily an either/or equation. I'm neither smooth nor slick in my presentation, just as an example. My speed and accuracy are good enough to satisfy my hopes and expectations.
Let me explain because you still obviously don't understand the terms. If you have a glitch in your grip and have to reposition your hand, you will be slower. If you have a glitch in your draw, you will be slower. If you have a glitch in your presentation, you will be slower. I don't care how fast you think you are. I can improve your speed, if I take the glitches our of your draw stroke. People have seen me, from concealed, not open draw, to first shot at .87. That does not happen if my drawstroke is not smooth.
 
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