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Ever since learning it from you, brownie in 2014, the scoop draw is the bomb and practiced during each dry-fire exercise I do at home to maintain that skill! 馃憤馃憤
 

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Ever since learning it from you, brownie in 2014, the scoop draw is the bomb and practiced during each dry-fire exercise I do at home to maintain that skill! 馃憤馃憤
I always do a couple as soon as I put my pistol in the holster every day. 馃憤
 
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One obviously has to gain speed slowly over time to let the fast twitch muscles gain speed while staying accurate in their hits. The other way to gain speed is draw faster than you think you can, and not worry about hits. You're training the fast twitch and proprioceptors in the shoulder/arm/hand to be able to move quicker.

Same for developing trigger speed [ splits ]. If you don't shoot out of control and stay within a current comfort level, you don't make 5 shots a second on threat. Trained my trigger finger to shooting faster and out of control not worrying about hits. In a short period of time, I gained trigger finger speed from 4-5 hits a second.
Yep, I understand what you are saying.

When you were walking down that hallway and you're mind identified two targets, your body reacted 'reflexively', i.e. with trained skill. Fast, accurate, absent of conscious thought.

From your perspective, you learned that best by going too fast until you slowed it down to being accurate. I understand why you teach the way you do now, and if you ever come back I'll be better prepared mentally.

I learned the other way around :)

Regardless, most people can only get there thru training, which I know you differentiate from practice. If you care to explain? To me, the words are interchangeable.

Which is why I don't think that most people can 'train\practice too much'.
Fast. Accurate. Absent of conscious thought. Only comes with self confidence and self doubt comes easily to most people.
 

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Discussion Starter · #45 ·
The quote was from Wyatt Earp and the fact that you were so fast to call it meaningless taught me three things about you. Thank you. Be well.
30 shots fired in 30 seconds at the OK Corral. Earp, his two brothers and Doc Holiday [ 4 ] fired on 5 "cowboys" from a distance that started at 6 feet. Three cowboys died of the 5 there.

Wyatt's attributed quote "Fast is fine, but accuracy is final. In a gun fight... You need to take your time in a hurry." seems to be in question when analyzed. Accuracy is final? He apparently wasn't accurate enough that day to take more men down at near spitting distance. Was it because he hurried his shots and didn't follow his own quoted mindset?

Who can say, but we can say this. He was neither fast nor accurate that day from historical record. He shot Frank McLaury and Billy Clanton. Clanton took two hits from Wyatt, one in the chest and one in the arm. He wounded McLaury in the stomach but McLaury continued to fight on, though he eventually died.

Doc was known as a killer, Wyatt was known for his intestinal fortitude [ but not for his superb gun skills ]. Hard to believe these men weren't accurate enough at 6-10 feet to put all 5 of them down, but they weren't and didn't.

As to my other response to you, wasn't trying to be argumentative. There's a few ways to gain speed, the slow way or the way I came to gain speed both in drawing and trigger finger speed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #46 ·
Yep, I understand what you are saying.

When you were walking down that hallway and you're mind identified two targets, your body reacted 'reflexively', i.e. with trained skill. Fast, accurate, absent of conscious thought.

From your perspective, you learned that best by going too fast until you slowed it down to being accurate. I understand why you teach the way you do now, and if you ever come back I'll be better prepared mentally.

I learned the other way around :)

Regardless, most people can only get there thru training, which I know you differentiate from practice. If you care to explain? To me, the words are interchangeable.

Which is why I don't think that most people can 'train\practice too much'.
Fast. Accurate. Absent of conscious thought. Only comes with self confidence and self doubt comes easily to most people.
Great post sir. It was just the way I evolved with the speed. I found shooting past comfort levels [ speed ] and ignoring hits [ try to make them of course at the same time ] brought more fast to the fast twitch muscles, then I could throttle back a tad and I had the accuracy back but had gained some speed.

The above after researching fast twitch muscle development. Seemed to make sense and the results verified that's how fast twitch muscles can be developed much quicker than slowly increasing speed but always concerned about accuracy. It actually slows the progress of gaining speed, but as you mention, that's how most people learn to pick up some speed.

It's all good sir.

Post 11 sir.
 

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No matter how good you are, no matter how much you train, no matter what equipment you buy.... certain things are guaranteed to decrease your ability. One is age....yep the old aging process will catch up to us all one day. Our reflexes slow, our stamina decreases and our strength diminishes. Physically and mentality we lose our edge we worked so hard to gain. Illness.... takes our abilities also. Cancer, COPD, arthritis, heart disease...all grabs and makes our ability fade to what use to be. So what is the solution?....keep on training as much as possible and never stop EDC until the day you just can not defend yourself or you think you are unable to not endanger others when you carry. Hopefully that day does not come to most of us, but unfortunately, if we live long enough, it may come to some of us.
 

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Ever since learning it from you, brownie in 2014, the scoop draw is the bomb and practiced during each dry-fire exercise I do at home to maintain that skill! 馃憤馃憤
For those of us who weren't around back then to take Brownie's class, perhaps someone here could demonstrate (or describe) the "scoop draw". :)
 

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For those of us who weren't around back then to take Brownie's class, perhaps someone here could demonstrate (or describe) the "scoop draw". :)
I think there's a thread here somewhere with a video from brownie demonstrating the scoop draw. If I can find it, I'll post a link to it here. :unsure:
 

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Discussion Starter · #50 ·
For those of us who weren't around back then to take Brownie's class, perhaps someone here could demonstrate (or describe) the "scoop draw". :)
Here ya go sir.
 

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The quote was from Wyatt Earp and the fact that you were so fast to call it meaningless taught me three things about you. Thank you. Be well.
It is attributed to Wyatt Earp as recounted by a late-life biographer. That said, it still makes no sense.

You're welcome.

诇讱 诇砖诇讜诐
 

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^51

Also something along the lines of...
"I fear explanations explanatory of things explained."

I believe that little gem was coined by Abraham Lincoln! :)
 

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Nope, not one damn bit from this RSO's perspective! (y)馃
Same here. You鈥檝e still 鈥済ot it鈥 Sir. 馃憤

I also have no trouble shooting using either the skills or sight-focused fire after taking 6-7 months off from shooting. That鈥檚 been the case on several occasions when taking the TFP training. When we had the November course; I hadn鈥檛 shot any since March at ebl鈥檚 one day Okee course.
The proprioceptors, once developed, seem to last a long time, even when not being used.
 

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No matter how good you are, no matter how much you train, no matter what equipment you buy.... certain things are guaranteed to decrease your ability. One is age....yep the old aging process will catch up to us all one day. Our reflexes slow, our stamina decreases and our strength diminishes. Physically and mentality we lose our edge we worked so hard to gain. Illness.... takes our abilities also. Cancer, COPD, arthritis, heart disease...all grabs and makes our ability fade to what use to be. So what is the solution?....keep on training as much as possible and never stop EDC until the day you just can not defend yourself or you think you are unable to not endanger others when you carry. Hopefully that day does not come to most of us, but unfortunately, if we live long enough, it may come to some of us.
Well, I turned 71 a week ago, and as folks could see at our last Okee class; I can still shoot a bit鈥. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #55 ·
Same here. You鈥檝e still 鈥済ot it鈥 Sir. 馃憤

I also have no trouble shooting using either the skills or sight-focused fire after taking 6-7 months off from shooting. That鈥檚 been the case on several occasions when taking the TFP training. When we had the November course; I hadn鈥檛 shot any since March at ebl鈥檚 one day Okee course.
The proprioceptors, once developed, seem to last a long time, even when not being used.
Lets consider this:
1.3 million rounds downrange. Lets say each draw shot 7 rounds. That's 185,714 draw strokes. Lets say an average of 5 rounds, that's 260,000 draw strokes over 50 years [ or 5200 draw strokes per year which is 100 draw strokes per day for 50 years average ].

That proprioceptive draw stroke will certainly live within me for the rest of my carrying days. It's subconscious competence. When one thinks about it, I likely have more draw strokes than most will put rounds downrange in their lifetime.
 

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Discussion Starter · #56 ·
Well, I turned 71 a week ago, and as folks could see at our last Okee class; I can still shoot a bit鈥. ;)
Yes, you and Shark on the far right didn't need much if any intervention all weekend Rick. Ya still got it.
 

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Slow is slow, fast is fast, and smooth can be either.
You remind me of other people that do not understand the meaning of slow is smooth and smooth is fast. By not having glitches in your uncovering of your weapon or glitches in your draw stroke or glitches in your presentation. Your draw stroke to first shot is faster.
We don鈥檛 start newcomers out trying to QuickDraw to first shot in under a second for a reason.
We have them do it 100-200 times slowly so that their presentation is flawless. Once it is flawless the speed comes.
So sorry, no slow is not necessarily slow.
 

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No matter how good you are, no matter how much you train, no matter what equipment you buy.... certain things are guaranteed to decrease your ability. One is age....yep the old aging process will catch up to us all one day. Our reflexes slow, our stamina decreases and our strength diminishes. Physically and mentality we lose our edge we worked so hard to gain. Illness.... takes our abilities also. Cancer, COPD, arthritis, heart disease...all grabs and makes our ability fade to what use to be. So what is the solution?....keep on training as much as possible and never stop EDC until the day you just can not defend yourself or you think you are unable to not endanger others when you carry. Hopefully that day does not come to most of us, but unfortunately, if we live long enough, it may come to some of us.
After reading this depressing message above, I鈥檓 going to have to buy a new pistol to cheer myself up. I still have the strength to pull the cash out of my pocket albeit a little slower than before. On a positive note there is a little more cash in there than there used to be when I was younger and faster. I suppose that is one of life鈥檚 cruel ironies.
 

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You remind me of other people that do not understand the meaning of slow is smooth and smooth is fast. By not having glitches in your uncovering of your weapon or glitches in your draw stroke or glitches in your presentation. Your draw stroke to first shot is faster.
We don鈥檛 start newcomers out trying to QuickDraw to first shot in under a second for a reason.
We have them do it 100-200 times slowly so that their presentation is flawless. Once it is flawless the speed comes.
So sorry, no slow is not necessarily slow.
You confuse my disagreement with a lack of understanding.
 

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Discussion Starter · #60 · (Edited)
Number of repetitions for muscle memory gained? Opinions across the board are 3-5,000 reps done exactly the same way if it's a new skill. Thing is, doing it the same way at the same deliberate slow pace may perfect that draw stroke, but then one has to contend with developing the fast twitch muscles to accomplish speed.

Plenty of students will confirm, the first time they were introduced to the scoop draw, none of them needed more than a dozen times, maybe, but we had people shooting 1 second from draw with the scoop draw in a matter of a few mags, if that.

One mans fast is another mans slow. But there's no question that slow is slow whether it's smooth or not. And fast is fast whether it's smooth or not. .90-1.1 seconds from concealed is fast for me, 1.25-1.75 seconds from concealed is slow for me. If one has real speed, it would have to be smooth to begin with, yet it didn't have to be developed by deliberately taking your time [ when time is usually of the essence measured in 1/10's of a second.

Still like this one-- speed is fine but accuracy is final. Sounds like he didn't believe one could have both, and we know plenty of people here who have both. Not to mention we know he wasn't that accurate, even at bad breath distances ;)
 
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