[BeerHunter]

Here's video posted to another forum I'm on, which is apparently excerpts of a larger training DVD. I found it quite interesting and thought you all might find it interesting, too. I can certainly hear some of the things Brownie was talking about at Lake Mary earlier this month as well as things I've read here in the Training and Tactics and the Defensive Scenarios forum posts from Brownie, Bob, and others! It sure looks like they provide some very realistic scenario based training, the likes of which I'd like to pursue myself.

My apologies if this has been posted before but I couldn't find it.

I do have some questions about the legal ramifications in the aftermath of the last scenario, if it occurred in an isolated area with no supporting witnesses. :dunno

 

[collegeboy]

It's surprising how far you have to keep someone from you to be able to count on being able to draw and fire in time to stop them from getting to you and inflicting damage!

Repeatedly hearing "Action beats reaction!" (Thanks SwampRat) - and being told that "21' is as close as you can let them get." - still doesn't make the same impression as seeing how far that really is. . .?

The visual of how far you have to keep them from you is the most likely 'take-away' from that video.

Thanks

 

[brownie]

"Mean Gene" also known affectionately as Ugly here on the forum :grin

He needs a faster draw to muzzle on perp, either that, or not be so guncentric and go h2h to create more time and distance before drawing :grin

You'll also notice he's not putting up a very good offense and remains basically defensive in his actions. That does NOT bode well for becoming the victor. That's been discussed here quite a bit, the sooner you force them to react to you [ thus having gotten inside their OODa ] the odds move to your favor.

Vid brings the potential to wait too long, or start so close you don't have a reaction time to the fore nicely, thanks for sharing sir

 

[bttbbob]

"Mean Gene" also known affectionately as Ugly here on the forum :grin

He needs a faster draw to muzzle on perp, either that, or not be so guncentric and go h2h to create more time and distance before drawing :grin

Or get his boots out of the quicksand while drawing...JUSTTTTTTTT MOOOVEEEEEEE WHEEEENNNNNNNN YOOOUUUUUUUUU DRRRAAAAWWWWWW.

 

[brownie]

Excellent point Bob. Where he didn't have a prayer in the first go of getting the gun out before being tagged, I'd rather stop drawing and move to intercept that blade about to make contact. Just me, might not be for everyone.

 

[bttbbob]

Excellent point Bob. Where he didn't have a prayer in the first go of getting the gun out before being tagged, I'd rather stop drawing and move to intercept that blade about to make contact. Just me, might not be for everyone.

I could do either, but one thing I would never do.....Meet someone flatfooted.

 

[BeerHunter]

Great stuff Brownie and Bob. For one, I'm sure I'm not the only one learning a lot here. IMHO, we need A LOT more of this type of discussion here in "The Range" or "Concealed Carry" areas; the real reason we all joined FCC. It seems the vast majority of postings these days are in "The Water Cooler."

 

[bttbbob]

They wind up there

 

[JimG19]

Great stuff Brownie and Bob. For one, I'm sure I'm not the only one learning a lot here. IMHO, we need A LOT more of this type of discussion here in "The Range" or "Concealed Carry" areas; the real reason we all joined FCC. It seems the vast majority of postings these days are in "The Water Cooler."

Agreed. I think that we can do better.

 

[JimG19]

I think in the last scenario, the guy in white is going to jail.

 

[hornet]

I think in the last scenario, the guy in white is going to jail.

The next thread for the water cooler might be: which is better, alive in jail with appeals every year or dead?

 

[JimG19]

There was no clear verbal or physical threat. No obvious disparity of force. Witnesses and a jury would sink this guy.

 

[BeerHunter]

There was no clear verbal or physical threat. No obvious disparity of force. Witnesses and a jury would sink this guy.

Other that his continued closing despite the commands to stop. However, this is the crux of the question I had after watching; how would a jury decide? Remember though that the scenario was he was hiking with his family and protecting himself and them, so there would have been at least one witness, albeit a family member. Not at all sure how it would play out in court but the alternative is he and his family would get hurt or killed. :dunno

 

[bttbbob]

Mike Janich did a beautiful article on this for Police Magazine.....Everyone knows the Tueller drill if they have been training at all over the years....But Mike gives you a beyond that once you have that skill mastered.

http://www.policemag.com/channel/weapons/articles/2008/11/beyond-the-tueller-drill.aspx

 

[BeerHunter]

Unlike the defender in the video, I know I am not remaining static during an attack!

EDIT: Forgot to say thanks for the link, Bob!

 

[brownie]

Great stuff Brownie and Bob. For one, I'm sure I'm not the only one learning a lot here. IMHO, we need A LOT more of this type of discussion here in "The Range" or "Concealed Carry" areas; the real reason we all joined FCC. It seems the vast majority of postings these days are in "The Water Cooler."

I can remember a time when that was the norm here. I'd find it refreshing to have more of these type of threads here once again myself sir :thusmup

 

[brownie]

Mike Janich did a beautiful article on this for Police Magazine.....Everyone knows the Tueller drill if they have been training at all over the years....But Mike gives you a beyond that once you have that skill mastered.

http://www.policemag.com/channel/weapons/articles/2008/11/beyond-the-tueller-drill.aspx

Interesting, Mike [ who've I've trained with several times ] basically says the same thing I did here:

What the Tueller Drill really teaches is that drawing and shooting alone are not going to save your life in a close-range encounter. In fact, the entire concept of going for your gun as an initial reaction is probably not the best way of ensuring your survival. Movement, the use of obstacles, and sound empty-hand tactics—applied properly—can all do more to keep you alive than a pure "gun-fu" response.

 

[BeerHunter]

I can remember a time when that was the norm here. I'd find it refreshing to have more of these type of threads here once again myself sir :thusmup

I find myself spending more and more time going back to those threads, many of which you started or contributed to. Thanks for that! :thumsup That quenches my thirst for knowledge a lot more and I'm trying harder to avoid all the "look, squirrel" distractions in threads that don't really matter to me, hence the third quote in my signature! :grin

 

[NotXskinnyXBarbie]

You'll also notice he's not putting up a very good offense and remains basically defensive in his actions. That does NOT bode well for becoming the victor. That's been discussed here quite a bit, the sooner you force them to react to you [ thus having gotten inside their OODa ] the odds move to your favor.

That's what I noticed. He's trying to stop the stabs and slashes, which pbviously doesn't work. he needed to turn the tables.

NOW... I've been put to the test in training, after learning a thing or two (not one more) from you... and to tell you the truth... All I learned with you went out the window, (except maybe using my weak hand to fence a [VERY] little). (That's when I signed up for second class!!). Natural reaction was to stop the stabs/slashes. Great mistake, no matter how strong you are. (The guy in the vid is not a weakling midle age woman). At the end you die with defensive wounds for forensics investigators to document. :dunno

Now about distances... this vid was about hiking... a scenario only common for some members here :grin Distance and personal space depends greatly of where/when you are... You can defend a greater distance (for intent) in a solitary place. For common city scenarios? Scrw the 21' and we all know it. No? You have people "bumping" into you all the time and keeping a space of 6' is a challenge sometimes. Those of us that had tried the Tueller drill KNOW the gun means diddly is you allow less than that distance... and even at that distance reaction and drawing time is a pain with a quick attacker... so learning how to go to hands and delay or stop before drawing a gun is NEEDED.


BTW... I love the marker idea! Way cheaper than marking knives and less painful than bruises.

I do have some questions about the legal ramifications in the aftermath of the last scenario, if it occurred in an isolated area with no supporting witnesses. :dunno

isolated and no witness.... That depends.... do you carry a shovel in your trunk when hiking? :grin

 

[hornet]

Natural reaction was to stop the stabs/slashes. Great mistake, no matter how strong you are. (The guy in the vid is not a weakling midle age woman). At the end you die with defensive wounds for forensics investigators to document. :dunno

Excellent point we all should take note of! thank you for describing it so clearly. :thumsup