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My focus on fixed sights versus the dot is different to me. (terminology picayune)

Suppressor height sights installed but going to the range happening today.
I’m on the fence about a red dot on my carry pistol for distance shooting if ever needed. So, I’m trying to figure out what is being said here.

Are you saying that with the dot you can see the dot and the target clearly? That doesn’t seem possible to me as your eyes can only focus on one thing at a time at two different distances (at least mine do). Or are you saying you prefer to see the target focused and the dot blurry? Wouldn’t that be the same with irons?

Also, are your new irons co-witnessing with the dot?


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Discussion Starter · #42 ·
I’m on the fence about a red dot on my carry pistol for distance shooting if ever needed. So, I’m trying to figure out what is being said here.

Are you saying that with the dot you can see the dot and the target clearly? That doesn’t seem possible to me as your eyes can only focus on one thing at a time at two different distances (at least mine do). Or are you saying you prefer to see the target focused and the dot blurry? Wouldn’t that be the same with irons?

Also, are your new irons co-witnessing with the dot?


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Thanks for the return from the weeds to the point of my original post.

Yes, both the dot and target appear clearly. My focus remains on the target, while the dot is clear. Noteworthy, perhaps, that with my 20/150 vision uncorrected, the dot becomes a bright blur, regardless of focal point.

My irons are back-ups only, in the event of dot failure. There is no co-witness. Trying to co-witness will result only in lesser accuracy and frustration. Also, the aligned irons produce a different point of aim than the dot, at least at closer ranges. I ignore the irons.
 

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I’m on the fence about a red dot on my carry pistol for distance shooting if ever needed. So, I’m trying to figure out what is being said here.

Are you saying that with the dot you can see the dot and the target clearly? That doesn’t seem possible to me as your eyes can only focus on one thing at a time at two different distances (at least mine do). Or are you saying you prefer to see the target focused and the dot blurry? Wouldn’t that be the same with irons?

Also, are your new irons co-witnessing with the dot?


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You will see the red dot superimposed over the target when used correctly Caleb. They are actually fairly easy to learn to use correctly for most without some form of eye issues.

In my own case, the astigmatism puts the dot a little less defined on the edges [ like it's frayed around the edge ]. That doesn't affect how accurate I can be with a dot. My issue with using a dot on a pistol is, it hinders my speed on threat with that first shot [ which may be the only shot that matters ].

How do I know that? 22 pistol steel plates [ of all sizes ] matches. 2nd or 3rd place with iron's using pistol QK [ unless ultra precision shots need be taken which they use quite often ] to 13th-15th place with the dot. The difference is the time to make that first shot [ bringing the gun to eye level, finding the dot, firing ].

I'm speaking to those little dots people put on pistols, not the old huge tubes we used back in the 80's in matches. Those tubes were large enough I could find the dot very quickly. How quickly? 5 head shots at 33 feet in 4.0 seconds from surrender position.
 

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Thanks for the return from the weeds to the point of my original post.

Yes, both the dot and target appear clearly. My focus remains on the target, while the dot is clear. Noteworthy, perhaps, that with my 20/150 vision uncorrected, the dot becomes a bright blur, regardless of focal point.

My irons are back-ups only, in the event of dot failure. There is no co-witness. Trying to co-witness will result only in lesser accuracy and frustration. Also, the aligned irons produce a different point of aim than the dot, at least at closer ranges. I ignore the irons.
Thanks for the clarification. I have experience with dots only on carbines. I have shot pistols with a dot but, only a handful of times.

No co-witness, copy that. I can see how it would get “cluttered” in your sight picture if it was co-witnessed.

You will see the red dot superimposed over the target when used correctly Caleb. They are actually fairly easy to learn to use correctly for most without some form of eye issues.

In my own case, the astigmatism puts the dot a little less defined on the edges [ like it's frayed around the edge ]. That doesn't affect how accurate I can be with a dot. My issue with using a dot on a pistol is, it hinders my speed on threat with that first shot [ which may be the only shot that matters ].

How do I know that? 22 pistol steel plates [ of all sizes ] matches. 2nd or 3rd place with iron's using pistol QK [ unless ultra precision shots need be taken which they use quite often ] to 13th-15th place with the dot. The difference is the time to make that first shot [ bringing the gun to eye level, finding the dot, firing ].

I'm speaking to those little dots people put on pistols, not the old huge tubes we used back in the 80's in matches. Those tubes were large enough I could find the dot very quickly. How quickly? 5 head shots at 33 feet in 4.0 seconds from surrender position.
I as well have astigmatism and see the dots the same as you. Looks like a wool dryer ball after the load is done.

You mentioned the dot will slow your speed to first shot on the target. Would that matter if the target is at 10yds or 50yds? Would you be taking a fraction longer of the time at the further distances for that first shot? If so, would it matter if that is with irons or a dot?


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Thanks for the clarification. I have experience with dots only on carbines. I have shot pistols with a dot but, only a handful of times.

No co-witness, copy that. I can see how it would get “cluttered” in your sight picture if it was co-witnessed.



I as well have astigmatism and see the dots the same as you. Looks like a wool dryer ball after the load is done.

You mentioned the dot will slow your speed to first shot on the target. Would that matter if the target is at 10yds or 50yds? Would you be taking a fraction longer of the time at the further distances for that first shot? If so, would it matter if that is with irons or a dot?


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At 10 yrds, the dot slows me down [ as in the matches ]. At 50 yrds, the dot may be a little faster to acquire than taking the time to align the sights perfectly.

I think at 50 yrds, if I'm taking incoming, Quick Kill pistol will get me on threat at least as fast as the dot would as long as the threat was out in the open. I'm going to be more accurate overall with the dot at 50 yrds from my experience with them, but the majority of my training defensively isn't 50 yrd distances.

If 95+% of the time, SD will be under 10 yrds and most of that will be under 5 yrds, I don't find the need to put a dot on my carry guns which will hinder that first shot on threat time wise.

Remember, I've been using threat focused skills for 41 years. I don't have time left nor the ambition to throw tens of thousands of rounds downrange to master a dot. LOL
 

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Discussion Starter · #47 ·
Thanks for the clarification. I have experience with dots only on carbines. I have shot pistols with a dot but, only a handful of times.

No co-witness, copy that. I can see how it would get “cluttered” in your sight picture if it was co-witnessed.



I as well have astigmatism and see the dots the same as you. Looks like a wool dryer ball after the load is done.

You mentioned the dot will slow your speed to first shot on the target. Would that matter if the target is at 10yds or 50yds? Would you be taking a fraction longer of the time at the further distances for that first shot? If so, would it matter if that is with irons or a dot?


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In my experience, out past about fifteen yards, the lag time to getting the dot on target gets less and less. At fifty yards, I am about twenty-five percent more likely to get the hit on a 2/3 silhouette with the dot than with the irons.

For me, at least, sight pictures are much different with a long gun than with a handgun simply by virtue of the distance from my eye to the front sight post. On a handgun, the front post remains a blur. With a long gun, I can draw a crisp, sharp focus on that front sight and utilize the traditional front sight press method of shooting. I've never felt the need to put dots on my long guns.
 

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Discussion Starter · #48 ·
At 10 yrds, the dot slows me down [ as in the matches ]. At 50 yrds, the dot may be a little faster to acquire than taking the time to align the sights perfectly.

I think at 50 yrds, if I'm taking incoming, Quick Kill pistol will get me on threat at least as fast as the dot would as long as the threat was out in the open. I'm going to be more accurate overall with the dot at 50 yrds from my experience with them, but the majority of my training defensively isn't 50 yrd distances.

If 95+% of the time, SD will be under 10 yrds and most of that will be under 5 yrds, I don't find the need to put a dot on my carry guns which will hinder that first shot on threat time wise.

Remember, I've been using threat focused skills for 41 years. I don't have time left nor the ambition to throw tens of thousands of rounds downrange to master a dot. LOL
The only reason I ever went to the dot on my handguns was my inability to get good hits at distance with conventional sights. In my world, the potential need for handgun hits at distance is a genuine possibility. The dots became a part of my world well before threat-focused shooting became part of my repertoire. That threat-focused adaptation across the board improved my hits at distance exponentially with conventional sights. The dots, however provide me with a bit more precision.

Unless I'm doing some fine precision stuff, the dots don't help inside fifteen yards or so. My last FASTER class involved a fair amount of that closer precision. I started out with my M&P9c equipped with conventional sights, and the differences over the course of the first morning were obvious. I switched over to my DeltaPoint-equipped Glock 17 that afternoon, and the results were again immediately apparent. For precision, the dot is the best I've found for myself. Inside fifteen yards doing speed stuff, it does slow me down a bit.
 

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The only reason I ever went to the dot on my handguns was my inability to get good hits at distance with conventional sights. In my world, the potential need for handgun hits at distance is a genuine possibility. The dots became a part of my world well before threat-focused shooting became part of my repertoire. That threat-focused adaptation across the board improved my hits at distance exponentially with conventional sights. The dots, however provide me with a bit more precision.

Unless I'm doing some fine precision stuff, the dots don't help inside fifteen yards or so. My last FASTER class involved a fair amount of that closer precision. I started out with my M&P9c equipped with conventional sights, and the differences over the course of the first morning were obvious. I switched over to my DeltaPoint-equipped Glock 17 that afternoon, and the results were again immediately apparent. For precision, the dot is the best I've found for myself. Inside fifteen yards doing speed stuff, it does slow me down a bit.
Just curious what you do or what your world is where you would need hits at distance with a pistol?
 

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Discussion Starter · #50 ·
Just curious what you do or what your world is where you would need hits at distance with a pistol?
In my synagogue. I am the armed response there.

If it ever does come down to that, my ability to thread that needle that Brownie ran us through at the alumni class might be very relevant.
 

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Discussion Starter · #52 ·
I see. Good on you for being willing to protect others.
Yup. Every person there is either a close friend or family member, so it runs a bit more personal than that whole sheepdog thing we hear about from time to time. Besides, I am somewhere on that target list. There is no run or hide.
 

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I’m on the fence about a red dot on my carry pistol for distance shooting if ever needed. So, I’m trying to figure out what is being said here.

Are you saying that with the dot you can see the dot and the target clearly? That doesn’t seem possible to me as your eyes can only focus on one thing at a time at two different distances (at least mine do). Or are you saying you prefer to see the target focused and the dot blurry? Wouldn’t that be the same with irons?

Also, are your new irons co-witnessing with the dot?


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The Ameriglow XL height sights I installed are bottom 1/3 of aperture.
The pic doesn't accurately reflect what I see (front sight not that high), but you get the idea.
I have not been able to check fixed sight POI yet, will next range trip.
I'm a bit nearsighted, my glasses tend to fuzz front sights, but make the dot clear.
I'm able to have more focus on the target with the dot than fixed sights.
Camera accessory Automotive tire Auto part Bag Automotive wheel system
 

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The Ameriglow XL height sights I installed are bottom 1/3 of aperture.
The pic doesn't accurately reflect what I see (front sight not that high), but you get the idea.
I have not been able to check fixed sight POI yet, will next range trip.
I'm a bit nearsighted, my glasses tend to fuzz front sights, but make the dot clear.
I'm able to have more focus on the target with the dot than fixed sights.
View attachment 77024
I know the pic doesn’t do it justice but, it looks like the irons will be just barely over the bottom of the optic. But like you have said, they are a backup to the dot.


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Discussion Starter · #55 ·
I know the pic doesn’t do it justice but, it looks like the irons will be just barely over the bottom of the optic. But like you have said, they are a backup to the dot.


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With my Shield RMSc red dot utilizing stock height front and rear sights, my dot is about at the base of the outer front sight ring of CDW4ME's photo when I conventionally align the front and rear sight. I'm not sure why, and don't really care. That is why I don't try to "co-witness".
 

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Discussion Starter · #56 ·
Point shoulder
A slight detour back into the weeds, bearing in mind that the class I attended was over six years ago, and one of many that you have taught. With that said, you aren't going to remember the exact conversation, and I may be remembering it wrong. As demonstrated in the video, the front sight post is within the shooter's field of vision. Again, as I recall from the two or three minute course of instruction, you advised that aligning the front post to the base of the target in the periphery, maintaining focus on the target will serve as an additional reference, and that the hit will be slightly higher on the target.
If I'm wrong, or misunderstood, apologies for my mischaracterization of the material presented.

Back to how point shoulder was briefly mentioned in my original post--when I fired my first round after that bit of instruction, I brought the front sight to the base of the target, over the top of the DeltaPoint sight aperture. That put such an elevation on my muzzle the round went entirely over the berm.

Maybe you said what I thought you said, maybe I simply misunderstood. Either way, the point shoulder thing was so far removed from the intention of my post that I'm very sorry for having ever brought it up, and for the rhetorical and grammatical trip to the weeds to see who could urinate the most impressively that resulted. However it came about, I apologize for dragging you into a conversation that I never intended to make you a part of.
 

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A slight detour back into the weeds, bearing in mind that the class I attended was over six years ago, and one of many that you have taught. With that said, you aren't going to remember the exact conversation, and I may be remembering it wrong. As demonstrated in the video, the front sight post is within the shooter's field of vision. Again, as I recall from the two or three minute course of instruction, you advised that aligning the front post to the base of the target in the periphery, maintaining focus on the target will serve as an additional reference, and that the hit will be slightly higher on the target.

That sounds like QK pistol which is raised slightly higher to the level of your nose and as low as your mouth.,

If I'm wrong, or misunderstood, apologies for my mischaracterization of the material presented.

Back to how point shoulder was briefly mentioned in my original post--when I fired my first round after that bit of instruction, I brought the front sight to the base of the target, over the top of the DeltaPoint sight aperture. That put such an elevation on my muzzle the round went entirely over the berm.

Yup, can't use a dot as a reference point with QK pistol

Maybe you said what I thought you said, maybe I simply misunderstood. Either way, the point shoulder thing was so far removed from the intention of my post that I'm very sorry for having ever brought it up, and for the rhetorical and grammatical trip to the weeds to see who could urinate the most impressively that resulted. However it came about, I apologize for dragging you into a conversation that I never intended to make you a part of.

Anytime there's discussion that brings more clarification on something, it's a positive Mike
 

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Brownie and the helmet cam. Lol.
The early days, but I still like the point of view hits from the camera as demonstrated. I have taken a lot of crap from shooters over the helmet cam over the years. Taking crap from internet posers is part and parcel to being an instructor. Hell, I'd not slept in over 24 hours when I arrived and headed straight to the range where the boys were waiting on our rented privater range that day. Detractors pointed out in one, I nearly tripped over my own two feet, but failed to mention with no sleep I was still making the hits all day. ;)
 
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