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Discussion Starter · #81 ·
Some say that dry fire isn't the same as live fire practice. Well, yeah.... But that doesn't render dry fire useless or a waste of time. Pretty much every pro shooter on the planet uses dry fire practice. A LOT of it.

Of course live fire reloads, holster draws, etc... are the best practice. However, the reality is that NONE of the local ranges (in my area) allow it or are set up for it.

So, the only option is to rent a private bay (and arrange for an RSO) at a range over an hour's drive away. Well, that's not going to happen on any kind of regular basis. The only practical (and affordable) way to do that is with a group. We'd be lucky to arrange that twice a year. Some of us have jobs and families. That's just reality. Few of us have our own backyard ranges. That would be awesome. But my neighbors would not be very happy.

So... I trudge on and practice sucking as a "pistolero" at home... and use some technology to help measure progress. 馃槓

The other advantage of the tech / gizmos: It makes it more FUN. Dry fire practice can be BORING. Getting some feedback helps a lot to make it more interesting. And that means you're more likely to do it frequently.

Frankly, I'm a bit disappointed when some here who seem to revel in disparaging any effort to practice and improve that aren't in the same fashion of those who have access to private ranges or who trained and practiced differently "back in the good ol' days." Maybe I'm reading it incorrectly, but it sure seems that way. Instead of, "That's kinda cool, tell me more about it," we get, "That's not the same as live fire practice." Well... no S**T!

I would think that ANY and all efforts towards the honing of skills would be ENCOURAGED rather than discouraged.
Expense shouldn't be a closed gate to "staying alive practice". Having spent something on the order of 60K in expenses traveling for 2 decades for training all over the US, with someone who can afford as well as impart "stay alive" skills, I find the reasons given like "it's too far away", "it costs too much to rent a range" "don't have the time as I work" all sorta funny.

I worked 80-90 hours a week, found time to shoot two matches every weekend for 8-10 years. Found time to travel long distances and the necessary funds to attend courses that were going to give me a leg up where staying alive with a handgun is concerned.

Bottom line, it's about ones priorities, not so much finances, time/expenses. ;)
 

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Expense shouldn't be a closed gate to "staying alive practice". Having spent something on the order of 60K in expenses traveling for 2 decades for training all over the US, with someone who can afford as well as impart "stay alive" skills, I find the reasons given like "it's too far away", "it costs too much to rent a range" "don't have the time as I work" all sorta funny.

I worked 80-90 hours a week, found time to shoot two matches every weekend for 8-10 years. Found time to travel long distances and the necessary funds to attend courses that were going to give me a leg up where staying alive with a handgun is concerned.

Bottom line, it's about ones priorities, not so much finances, time/expenses. ;)
Oh, I see... so because my priorities aren't the same as yours... well, I guess I will just have to go through life sucking at my firearms skills, according to the "Tao of Brownie."

Wow. Just wow.

How many of my local contemporaries - there are PLENTY of them here - are FREQUENTLY practicing LIVE FIRE holster draws and reloads, locally or elsewhere?
 

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I think any kind of practice is great....using modern technology is the new thing and can help you a lot. I dont and never will contest anyone practicing that way. I understand the modern limitations on ranges and the ability to practice. However, you seem to get upset when old timers tell you that is not the same as being on the street and facing it in reality. Until you have been in an actual gun fight and survived, I suggest you do not disregard our opinions and consider them to be bashing you and your methods.
 

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Discussion Starter · #84 ·
Oh, I see... so because my priorities aren't the same as yours... well, I guess I will just have to go through life sucking at my firearms skills, according to the "Tao of Brownie."

Wow. Just wow.
Your priorities being different than mine are simply your choices to make. My statement stands, it's about priorities. I made no claim to yours being more or less than my own [ or anyone else's for that matter ].

But excuses used in lieu of admitting it's not high on the list of priorities [ training ] don't cut it with me. "The training costs too much"; the ammo costs too much" "I don't have the time" etc from people, especially some here seems at odds when they post they've bought another gun, several times a year. Again, that simply comes down to priorities
 

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However, you seem to get upset when old timers tell you that is not the same as being on the street and facing it in reality.
I'm not upset at all. Just pointing out that it's a statement of the obvious... or should be obvious. It is to me, anyway. Yes... dry fire and dry practice is not the same as live practice, which is also not the same as "real life SHTF" experience. It's just not. I don't think anyone has suggested any of that. So, I don't think any of us has to be reminded that, "What you're doing there isn't the same as facing down real life danger." Well, yeah... Duh!

Thankfully, I have managed to not face "reality" on the street. I've managed to avoid such situations. I have not served in law enforcement, nor faced direct battle while in the service. Again... thankfully. I've also managed to have never been mugged (knocking on wood) or faced a violent threat from a criminal. I don't pretend to be an "operator" or "badass mofo."

So far, so good. I will prepare for such "emergencies" as best I can, while balancing all of life's priorities... which are quite different than those of others. Naturally. We all have different priorities... or at least a different order of priorities.

Personally, I think I've done better than the majority of gun owners. I attend classes when I can. And I ENJOY those classes. They aren't a chore. They are.... in a way... a luxury or extravagance... with real world benefits. In any case, I'd go to a LOT more classes if I could... and may do that as the order of my priorities naturally evolves.

If, gawd-forbid, I'm ever faced with the real deal SHTF, hopefully I'll win. I might not. No guarantees in life. I could never be over-prepared. But I'm more prepared than the average person.

But I'm not going to chase some perpetually-moving goalpost as established by the experts here... or feel bad that I have fallen short of their litmus test of the day.

But, dammit... my local ranges won't let me draw from a holster. I can't do reloads the right way - by letting my mags drop to the floor (at the indoor range), lest they bounce down range (very good chance of that) and I can't retrieve them. I can't shoot on the move, either. Only one of the ranges allows rapid fire. These are the ranges I can go to easily and frequently.

But, I can practice unconventional positions and shooting on the move with dry fire at home. I can practice reloads. I can practice draws from the holster. And the gizmos help assess where I am and any progress being made. Plus it makes it more interesting and fun.

I fired 6,700 rounds of live ammo in 2022. Not bad, I think, all things considered.

And if you / they will have me... I'll sign up for the next live fire course, if at all possible. :)
 

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I can reload and fire again in under 1.5 seconds with all my semi's. Here's a picture of my mag dropping to the ground with my hand already on the second mag coming up to recharge the pistol.

I think it was Caleb who caught me on autopilot 鈽

I haven't really practiced speed reloads in many years, yet the proprioception is there from decades of training on recharging the pistols.

Ever been times on reloads?

View attachment 79144 View attachment 79145
I do it in less than 1.5 seconds on a bad day. I have been known to do it in under 1.
 

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I'm not upset at all. Just pointing out that it's a statement of the obvious... or should be obvious. It is to me, anyway. Yes... dry fire and dry practice is not the same as live practice, which is also not the same as "real life SHTF" experience. It's just not. I don't think anyone has suggested any of that. So, I don't think any of us has to be reminded that, "What you're doing there isn't the same as facing down real life danger." Well, yeah... Duh!

Thankfully, I have managed to not face "reality" on the street. I've managed to avoid such situations. I have not served in law enforcement, nor faced direct battle while in the service. Again... thankfully. I've also managed to have never been mugged (knocking on wood) or faced a violent threat from a criminal. I don't pretend to be an "operator" or "badass mofo."

So far, so good. I will prepare for such "emergencies" as best I can, while balancing all of life's priorities... which are quite different than those of others. Naturally. We all have different priorities... or at least a different order of priorities.

Personally, I think I've done better than the majority of gun owners. I attend classes when I can. And I ENJOY those classes. They aren't a chore. They are.... in a way... a luxury or extravagance... with real world benefits. In any case, I'd go to a LOT more classes if I could... and may do that as the order of my priorities naturally evolves.

If, gawd-forbid, I'm ever faced with the real deal SHTF, hopefully I'll win. I might not. No guarantees in life. I could never be over-prepared. But I'm more prepared than the average person.

But I'm not going to chase some perpetually-moving goalpost as established by the experts here... or feel bad that I have fallen short of their litmus test of the day.

But, dammit... my local ranges won't let me draw from a holster. I can't do reloads the right way - by letting my mags drop to the floor (at the indoor range), lest they bounce down range (very good chance of that) and I can't retrieve them. I can't shoot on the move, either. Only one of the ranges allows rapid fire. These are the ranges I can go to easily and frequently.

But, I can practice unconventional positions and shooting on the move with dry fire at home. I can practice reloads. I can practice draws from the holster. And the gizmos help assess where I am and any progress being made. Plus it makes it more interesting and fun.

I fired 6,700 rounds of live ammo in 2022. Not bad, I think, all things considered.

And if you / they will have me... I'll sign up for the next live fire course, if at all possible. :)
Let me refer you to my article in Ammoland explains the differences in Training, Practice, Qualification, Games and self defense.
 
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Let me refer you to my article in Ammoland explains the differences in Training, Practice, Qualification, Games and self defense.
I've read that before. Well expressed and succinct.

I'm quite familiar with the semantics of the different words and their definitions. I consider myself a wordsmith (I've written many articles and have been published in national journals) and a nearly insufferable pedant. :) So, I know the difference. And I use the words correctly.

Me going to the range to shoot static targets from a static position over and over and over... practicing.

Me going to a TFP course or one of your rifle courses... training. Training is a learning experience.

Earning the Expert Pistol Shot Medal in the Navy.... qualification (an easy one at that).

The only competitions I've been in were a few NRA "High Power Rifle" matches from 300 - 600 yards... and I was really there to practice rather than truly compete.
 

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Discussion Starter · #89 · (Edited)
I'm not upset at all. Just pointing out that it's a statement of the obvious... or should be obvious. It is to me, anyway. Yes... dry fire and dry practice is not the same as live practice, which is also not the same as "real life SHTF" experience. It's just not. I don't think anyone has suggested any of that. So, I don't think any of us has to be reminded that, "What you're doing there isn't the same as facing down real life danger." Well, yeah... Duh!

Thankfully, I have managed to not face "reality" on the street. I've managed to avoid such situations. I have not served in law enforcement, nor faced direct battle while in the service. Again... thankfully. I've also managed to have never been mugged (knocking on wood) or faced a violent threat from a criminal. I don't pretend to be an "operator" or "badass mofo."

So far, so good. I will prepare for such "emergencies" as best I can, while balancing all of life's priorities... which are quite different than those of others. Naturally. We all have different priorities... or at least a different order of priorities.

Personally, I think I've done better than the majority of gun owners. I attend classes when I can. And I ENJOY those classes. They aren't a chore. They are.... in a way... a luxury or extravagance... with real world benefits. In any case, I'd go to a LOT more classes if I could... and may do that as the order of my priorities naturally evolves.

If, gawd-forbid, I'm ever faced with the real deal SHTF, hopefully I'll win. I might not. No guarantees in life. I could never be over-prepared. But I'm more prepared than the average person.

But I'm not going to chase some perpetually-moving goalpost as established by the experts here... or feel bad that I have fallen short of their litmus test of the day.

But, dammit... my local ranges won't let me draw from a holster. I can't do reloads the right way - by letting my mags drop to the floor (at the indoor range), lest they bounce down range (very good chance of that) and I can't retrieve them. I can't shoot on the move, either. Only one of the ranges allows rapid fire. These are the ranges I can go to easily and frequently.

But, I can practice unconventional positions and shooting on the move with dry fire at home. I can practice reloads. I can practice draws from the holster. And the gizmos help assess where I am and any progress being made. Plus it makes it more interesting and fun.

I fired 6,700 rounds of live ammo in 2022. Not bad, I think, all things considered.

And if you / they will have me... I'll sign up for the next live fire course, if at all possible. :)
I think any kind of practice is great....using modern technology is the new thing and can help you a lot. I dont and never will contest anyone practicing that way. I understand the modern limitations on ranges and the ability to practice. However, you seem to get upset when old timers tell you that is not the same as being on the street and facing it in reality. Until you have been in an actual gun fight and survived, I suggest you do not disregard our opinions and consider them to be bashing you and your methods.
Pecking order could be
1. actual battle/s experience [ lots of lifes lesson learned the hard way ]
2. training in threat focused skills and refreshers as often as possible, including shooting on the move
3. Fof, as many scenarios as you can get under your belt in a controlled environment. Experiencing/choosing tactical solutions that worked or weren't the best choice resulting in your demise
4. Competition like idpa/ipsc matches [ where you can practice shooting on the move, solving tactical solutions presented in their COF, mag reloads, and running the gun under pressure/stress created by a few variables like being timed, lots of people watching you preform the course of fire etc
5. shooting on a line at a range where their restrictions for safety preclude any drawing, rapid firing, shooting on the move etc. Great practice for bullseye shooting tiny little groups.

#5 is the most prevalent for the vast majority of people who own firearms in the US. #5 is good for one thing where staying alive might be the goal. Gun handling, trigger control.

Two of the dozens of courses I've attended over 5 decades that gave me a huge leg up on the street were the ones where you were forced to make tactical decision on the fly [ just like the streets ]. The NTI [ national tactical invitational ] was one of the best weeks [ 5 full days of training scenarios that amounted to 2500.00 for the week in 1995/6 ] and the best of that week was the hogans alley scenarios where the BG's were live [ present local leo's ] and there was no scripting. You were to figure out how to resolve [ stay alive ] their various aggressions on your person physically as well as having to decide if and when to use that firearm with SIMS loaded in them.

The other was the SIONICS 10 day counter terr training [ 3000.00 to attend with added expenses for lodging/food/ammo etc totally near 4500.00 ]. They handed us so many problems we had to solve tactically to survive, it was to the point of overload [ 18 hours a day for 10 days was the norm ]. That was 180 hours of many staying alive skills, drills and experiencing the decision making processes with various weapons platform.

3K in 81 would be an outlay today of $14,692.92 today. 2500.00 in 95 would cost 4868.00 in todays dollars. These two courses alone would stand someone just over 17,000.00 dollars for 15 days of training now [ or roughly 1100.00 per day ].

People pay me 600.00 a day for one on one training, nearly half what it cost me back in the day to attend many of them. 200.00 a day threat focused courses now are akin to Filenes bargain basement prices in reality ;)
 

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Oh, I see... so because my priorities aren't the same as yours... well, I guess I will just have to go through life sucking at my firearms skills, according to the "Tao of Brownie."

Wow. Just wow.

How many of my local contemporaries - there are PLENTY of them here - are FREQUENTLY practicing LIVE FIRE holster draws and reloads, locally or elsewhere?
Right here; weekly.
I鈥檝e spelled it out more than once before; pretty recently, too.
Today was drawing and shooting; around doors, through windows, on the move, and lying prone facing gownrange behind a culvert (standing on end) for cover, two shots on the IDPA sillouette target (which is WAY smaller then the targets used that the TFP classes) from each side of the culvert while prone. I shot the two from the right side right-handed, the two from the left side left handed. Zero down. The last stage was shot lying on one side, weak side down; sideways to the range. Shoot two BGs with two to the body and one to the head; with a non-threat centered and blocking about half of both BGs.

Find a range that hosts IDPA matches (and hopefully practices; but I鈥檇 bet not too many of those), and anyone can learn and shoot in many different ways, using cover, in and out of vehicles, clearing the shoot house, and on and on.

I鈥檝e been doing it since 2007, and it鈥檚 the only way that I鈥檝e found to learn and practice valuable shooting skills, and to be able to draw and use the threat focused skills.

There鈥檚 also USPSA, which I won鈥檛 shoot; because I don鈥檛 want to fall into any of the 鈥漴un and gun鈥 habits that might just get me killed if I reverted to them in a real-life situation.

IDPA folks are very helpful to newbies, and are some of the nicest people you鈥檒l likely meet. 馃憤
 

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Discussion Starter · #91 ·
Right here; weekly.
I鈥檝e spelled it out more than once before; pretty recently, too.
Today was drawing and shooting; around doors, through windows, on the move, and lying prone facing gownrange behind a culvert (standing on end) for cover, two shots on the IDPA sillouette target (which is WAY smaller then the targets used that the TFP classes) from each side of the culvert while prone. I shot the two from the right side right-handed, the two from the left side left handed. Zero down. The last stage was shot lying on one side, weak side down; sideways to the range. Shoot two BGs with two to the body and one to the head; with a non-threat centered and blocking about half of both BGs.

Find a range that hosts IDPA matches (and hopefully practices; but I鈥檇 bet not too many of those), and anyone can learn and shoot in many different ways, using cover, in and out of vehicles, clearing the shoot house, and on and on.

I鈥檝e been doing it since 2007, and it鈥檚 the only way that I鈥檝e found to learn and practice valuable shooting skills, and to be able to draw and use the threat focused skills.

There鈥檚 also USPSA, which I won鈥檛 shoot; because I don鈥檛 want to fall into any of the 鈥漴un and gun鈥 habits that might just get me killed if I reverted to them in a real-life situation.

IDPA folks are very helpful to newbies, and are some of the nicest people you鈥檒l likely meet. 馃憤
What is your estimate of the time it takes you to reload Rick. All the years of competition, making hundreds of reloads if not thousands of them over that time, you've likely become pretty quick about it having highly developed proprioceptors to accomplish that action.
 

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Discussion Starter · #92 ·
Pistol reloads are one thing that I believe I have learned to perform pretty quickly, whether it's an emergency (slide lock) or tactical reload. Even with revolvers and speedloaders I'm not half bad, and I'm left-handed which puts me at disadvantage to begin with.

Smooth reloads sir. Been doing that awhile huh? ;)
 

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What is your estimate of the time it takes you to reload Rick. All the years of competition, making hundreds of reloads if not thousands of them over that time, you've likely become pretty quick about it having highly developed proprioceptors to accomplish that action.
I鈥檝e never timed it, but under two seconds, certainly.
You may remember how fast Paula executes her mag changes; both Rick W. and Andy noticed it during Rick鈥檚 last class. Well; guess who taught her?
My M&P9s have always auto-forwarded the slides with a forceful reload, and my Canik Rival does too.
I sure hope that the new Canik does; as that really helps with the reload time.
 

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I鈥檝e never timed it, but under two seconds, certainly.
You may remember how fast Paula executes her mag changes; both Rick W. and Andy noticed it during Rick鈥檚 last class. Well; guess who taught her?
My M&P9s have always auto-forwarded the slides with a forceful reload, and my Canik Rival does too.
I sure hope that the new Canik does; as that really helps with the reload time.
The only EDC I have that auto-forwards (which I consider an "enhancing feature") is the P365X-M and yes, it helps with reload times a lot. 馃
 
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So, I'm the only one that's actually timed it and posted the time. :unsure:
 

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So, I'm the only one that's actually timed it and posted the time. :unsure:
Well; the shot timers don鈥檛 pick up the draw.

Yesterday I was the first shooter on the first stage (so not warmed up at all).
The scenario was two BGs with a non-threat in the middle covering each BG @ half way, from bottom to top. The course of fire was, at the beep; draw standing in the doorway, move to cover and shoot each BG with two to the body and one to the head (six shots total on two different targets).
My time from the beep to last shot fired was 4.07 seconds; zero down, all shots taken shot threat focused. (The draw was of course within that time, as was moving from exposed to cover.) 馃し馃徎鈥嶁檪锔

Brownie鈥檒l know if the draw time within all that was fast enough or not.
 

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Well; the shot timers don鈥檛 pick up the draw.
The OP doesn't ask about the time to draw. It's about a mag change, right?

Timing a reload is easy....

Gun out in front of you with slide locked back (like when mag is empty), both hands gripping pistol.

BEEP!

Drop mag, insert new mag, send slide home (by either method) and fire.


Timer starts at beep and ends at shot.
 
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Discussion Starter · #98 ·
Well; the shot timers don鈥檛 pick up the draw.

Yesterday I was the first shooter on the first stage (so not warmed up at all).
The scenario was two BGs with a non-threat in the middle covering each BG @ half way, from bottom to top. The course of fire was, at the beep; draw standing in the doorway, move to cover and shoot each BG with two to the body and one to the head (six shots total on two different targets).
My time from the beep to last shot fired was 4.07 seconds; zero down, all shots taken shot threat focused. (The draw was of course within that time, as was moving from exposed to cover.) 馃し馃徎鈥嶁檪锔

Brownie鈥檒l know if the draw time within all that was fast enough or not.
Draw time would be exemplary. But you've got a LOT of draw time practice, I've seen you shoot. LOL
 

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The OP doesn't ask about the time to draw. It's about a mag change, right?

Timing a reload is easy....

Gun out in front of you with slide locked back (like when mag is empty), both hands gripping pistol.

BEEP!

Drop mag, insert new mag, send slide home (by either method) and fire.


Timer starts at beep and ends at shot.
Oops!
Brain fart here for sure鈥︷煫
 

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Yesterday I tried timing [dryfire] reloads with a shot-timer app on my phone and could not get either of two different apps to correctly time the reloads to first shot. However, I need to figure out how to adjust the sound thresholds because there was too much noise to get anything usable. I'll continue to experiment. . .
 
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