[brownie]

For me, on any given average day, the time to reload would probably be on the order of well..... several tens of seconds at best.
That - Since I don't carry spare mags, but do keep some in the Jeep center console and of course, in the safe (though not all of those are loaded, and if loaded, probably not loaded with hollow points.)
It would take a good bit of time to physically get to them.

One school of thought however, if I can't get the job done with the full magazine I'm carrying.....

Everyone's mileage varies.
I pretty much know that I'm not going to reliably carry spare mags on my person, so I just don't focus on it too much after that.
Armed every day? Yes.

I agree with Racer, whether a single stack or double stack, an extra mag that's accessible on your person is well [ for many reasons ] just good forethought.

 

[Anduril]

An extra mag (or more) goes deeper than just the extra number of rounds on hand. It also accounts for the possibility of a mag malfunction.

But back to capacity... and your quoted comment above... Is that assuming one assailant? What about six assailants?

At six assailants, I'd better be able to pick out the leader quick, and hope the rest scatter.
To be clear: I am definitely NOT saying extra mags are pointeless.
I'm saying: That at nearly age 60, I know myself fairly well -- and I'm just not the kind of guy to carry spare mags.

Granted, scary encounters / events could definitely change that.
But, I've made the decision that being armed (period. 100% in all allowed locations / situations) is about the best I'm going to personally pull off.

 

[racer88]

At six assailants, I'd better be able to pick out the leader quick, and hope the rest scatter.
To be clear: I am definitely NOT saying extra mags are pointeless.
I'm saying: That at nearly age 60, I know myself fairly well -- and I'm just not the kind of guy to carry spare mags.

Granted, scary encounters / events could definitely change that.
But, I've made the decision that being armed (period. 100% in all allowed locations / situations) is about the best I'm going to personally pull off.

It's a personal decision, of course. I carry one extra mag in my front non-dominant-side pocket in a pocket mag holster. It's utterly unobtrusive. I wouldn't know it's there, except that I know it's there.

That's my "compromise" vs adding another thing to my belt and having to worry about it being concealed or "printing." It's not as fast as a mag on a belt. But that's where I am for now.

 

[brownie]

At six assailants, I'd better be able to pick out the leader quick, and hope the rest scatter.
To be clear: I am definitely NOT saying extra mags are pointeless.
I'm saying: That at nearly age 60, I know myself fairly well -- and I'm just not the kind of guy to carry spare mags.

Granted, scary encounters / events could definitely change that.
But, I've made the decision that being armed (period. 100% in all allowed locations / situations) is about the best I'm going to personally pull off.

Surviving a meat grinder through hope and a prayer just isn't something I'd ever rely on. Training, more training, lots of practice using those trained skills till the gun in hand is just an extension of the hand, not something you're just holding.

Or one could rely on luck almost exclusively if one chose to as well. Not in my world of course, but everyone has to live in their own world.

I've made the decision that being armed (period. 100% in all allowed locations / situations) is about the best I'm going to personally pull off.

So what you seem to be suggesting is, you're not a "gun guy", just someone who carries a gun with a false sense of security. I'm not surprised, many here are of the same flavor.

 

[mike1956]

So what you seem to be suggesting is, you're not a "gun guy", just someone who carries a gun with a false sense of security. I'm not surprised, many here are of the same flavor.

That's one of the shortcomings of "gun" forums, in my estimation...

Gun guys often do not really fit in very well.

 

[brownie]

That's one of the shortcomings of "gun" forums, in my estimation...

Gun guys often do not really fit in very well.

It's been estimated that about 1% of gun carriers ever take any training other than what's required to get their ticket. It's estimated that in 2019, 6,000,000 people carried a gun daily in the US. Leading one to estimate the number of people who take some formal training with their handgun which would be about 60,000. I seriously doubt 60K people take training but going by the 1% number of those who do seems to suggest just that.

Gun guys= people that carry; people that shoot more than recreationally [ like various pistol matches ]; people who take more than a basics course of handhold, trigger control and sight alignment showing a bare minimum of skills.

It's ALL good, now I'm one who doesn't shoot but once a year when my brother comes down for Xmas, BUT, I've got oodles of time on guns to the tune of 1.2 million rounds through pistols, more high level training on staying alive with a handgun than most will ever attain.

I once stopped shooting for 5 years in the mid 90's. When I picked up the shooting box and went for the first time in that 5 years, the proprioception was still there for all the skills. With the exception of the trigger finger needing more tune up to get to that 5 rds a second again [ 4 per was like oh so ho hum LOL ]

I'm no longer a gun guy, many times not carrying a handgun for weeks during a motor trip with my brother or crossing into Canada or Mexico [ verboten ]. Just taking the PUG 22mag in the tank bag [ which goes every where with me when off the motor.

 

[mike1956]

It's been estimated that about 1% of gun carriers ever take any training other than what's required to get their ticket. It's estimated that in 2019, 6,000,000 people carried a gun daily in the US. Leading one to estimate the number of people who take some formal training with their handgun which would be about 60,000. I seriously doubt 60K people take training but going by the 1% number of those who do seems to suggest just that.

Gun guys= people that carry; people that shoot more than recreationally [ like various pistol matches ]; people who take more than a basics course of handhold, trigger control and sight alignment showing a bare minimum of skills.

It's ALL good, now I'm one who doesn't shoot but once a year when my brother comes down for Xmas, BUT, I've got oodles of time on guns to the tune of 1.2 million rounds through pistols, more high level training on staying alive with a handgun than most will ever attain.

I once stopped shooting for 5 years in the mid 90's. When I picked up the shooting box and went for the first time in that 5 years, the proprioception was still there for all the skills. With the exception of the trigger finger needing more tune up to get to that 5 rds a second again [ 4 per was like oh so ho hum LOL ]

I'm no longer a gun guy, many times not carrying a handgun for weeks during a motor trip with my brother or crossing into Canada or Mexico [ verboten ]. Just taking the PUG 22mag in the tank bag [ which goes every where with me when off the motor.

Whatever you consider yourself, you are likely one of the first guys I call whenever the need or urge to talk to a gun guy arises.

 

[racer88]

It's been estimated that about 1% of gun carriers ever take any training other than what's required to get their ticket. It's estimated that in 2019, 6,000,000 people carried a gun daily in the US. Leading one to estimate the number of people who take some formal training with their handgun which would be about 60,000. I seriously doubt 60K people take training but going by the 1% number of those who do seems to suggest just that.

Gun guys= people that carry; people that shoot more than recreationally [ like various pistol matches ]; people who take more than a basics course of handhold, trigger control and sight alignment showing a bare minimum of skills.

It's ALL good, now I'm one who doesn't shoot but once a year when my brother comes down for Xmas, BUT, I've got oodles of time on guns to the tune of 1.2 million rounds through pistols, more high level training on staying alive with a handgun than most will ever attain.

I once stopped shooting for 5 years in the mid 90's. When I picked up the shooting box and went for the first time in that 5 years, the proprioception was still there for all the skills. With the exception of the trigger finger needing more tune up to get to that 5 rds a second again [ 4 per was like oh so ho hum LOL ]

I'm no longer a gun guy, many times not carrying a handgun for weeks during a motor trip with my brother or crossing into Canada or Mexico [ verboten ]. Just taking the PUG 22mag in the tank bag [ which goes every where with me when off the motor.

So, that all raises a question, in the context of your own experience and perspective... What is "enough" training?

You said that very few people get ANY training beyond the bare minimum "Concealed Carry Class." And I'd bet dollars to donuts you (or whoever "estimated") are right about that. I have no doubts. Even 1% may be generous / optimistic.

SO... If a gun owner / carrier takes one more class beyond the CCW class.... or four private sessions with a pistol instructor.... Is that enough to spring them from the "prison of Brownie's consternation?" Are they OK at that point, in your eyes? Or do they have to take more? Two classes? Ten classes? Yearly classes?

At what point is a gun person considered "respectable" in your eyes? And is it a reasonable expectation?

 

[mike1956]

So, that all raises a question, in the context of your own experience and perspective... What is "enough" training?

You said that very few people get ANY training beyond the bare minimum "Concealed Carry Class." And I'd bet dollars to donuts you (or whoever "estimated") are right about that. I have no doubts. Even 1% may be generous / optimistic.

SO... If a gun owner / carrier takes one more class beyond the CCW class.... or four private sessions with a pistol instructor.... Is that enough to spring them from the "prison of Brownie's consternation?" Are they OK at that point, in your eyes? Or do they have to take more? Two classes? Ten classes? Yearly classes?

At what point is a gun person considered "respectable" in your eyes? And is it a reasonable expectation?

More a matter of demonstrable competency and proficiency than "enough", in my estimation.

 

[brownie]

So, that all raises a question, in the context of your own experience and perspective... What is "enough" training?

IMO, one can't have enough training when the wolves come calling.

You said that very few people get ANY training beyond the bare minimum "Concealed Carry Class." And I'd bet dollars to donuts you (or whoever "estimated") are right about that. I have no doubts. Even 1% may be generous / optimistic.

SO... If a gun owner / carrier takes one more class beyond the CCW class.... or four private sessions with a pistol instructor.... Is that enough to spring them from the "prison of Brownie's consternation?"

First, It's not consternation. Second, one should attempt to be all they can be in any endeavor they may venture into.

Are they OK at that point, in your eyes? Or do they have to take more? Two classes? Ten classes? Yearly classes?

Well, lets address that for a minute. I know people who've attended my Fof courses with multiple front sight press school [ many top tier in the US ] who died in every scenario they were put through. So it's not so much the number of courses they've taken, but the direct relationship between what skills they've acquired through those schools and the reality of the street. Some courses will make you a superstar in their eyes, but that superstar status is a hard pill to swallow when you're arse just got killed multiple times in various Fof scneario's because you're a one trick pony [ front sight press ]. And there's part of the crux of it Racer, people believe they'll acquit themselves at least at a level of "well" with little to no formal training on the streets, but Fof is an ego deflator of the highest magnitude.

I'll go one better by stating that anyone whose been through a threat focused pistol course anywhere [ and thus has multiple skills at their disposal ] will always fair better than a formally trained only FSP shooter. And FSP trained are likely 90-99% of people who have any training at all to begin with in the US. Not because that's what I taught others, but because what I've taught others was taught to me long ago and those skills stood me well in meat grinders. I know for a fact, if I'd not had the skills gifted to me I had, I'd have died long ago in one of those meat grinders.

Some may read this and believe I'm just hawking wares of the pistol skills, nothing could be further from the truth. I no longer train people, I'm retired, so people are more than welcome to take the above with a grain of salt or a voice of experience.

We have a former Fla. trooper here who worked for over 20 years with that agency. One of the best FSP shooters I've run around where repeated accuracy is concerned. The first lunch break of the first day of his first pistol course, he walked up to me and basically said he thought he was good to go all those years on the streets and in just 3 hours was convinced what he'd been trained in all those years was a waste of time where it came to not growing cold forever. There's hundreds of these people out there who've discovered exactly the same after taking a threat focused course of fire.

At what point is a gun person considered "respectable" in your eyes?

Well, that's a hard question to answer. I ran in some very well heeled circles where respect was earned through ones experiences and of course, the outcomes. In fact, if you didn't have combat experience, no matter who good you were, they weren't interested in putting you into the lineup. It's really not a matter of my respect or lack thereof of any person here or on other boards. I can tell you this though, one gains much respect from me when they've shown any kind of interest in improving themselves and sought out some training.

And is it a reasonable expectation?

See above in bold

 

[Rick McC.]

That was shooter4 and myself during the "wall of bullets" drill sir.

The decade or a little more of shooting matches where a dozen or more reloads were demanded in the courses of fire for the various stages every weekend afforded me ample opportunities to refine the reload on a stock gun [ NO magwell scoop the mag up but stock mag wells ]. Figure 10 a shoot, two shoots a weekend for 10 years would seem to suggest 10,000 reloads under pressure of the timer.

I never practiced reloads all that much outside competitions under the clock. But it got me where I am today with reloads as my mag carrier/s all sit in the same location [ 9 Oclock ].

Same for me Sir.
When IDPA took reload times “off the clock” I couldn’t believe it!
That said; several of the rule and procedural changes they’ve made in the last couple of years (to make the “sport” more gamer-friendly, I suppose) have left me talking to myself… 👎👎

 

[Rick McC.]

At six assailants, I'd better be able to pick out the leader quick, and hope the rest scatter.
To be clear: I am definitely NOT saying extra mags are pointeless.
I'm saying: That at nearly age 60, I know myself fairly well -- and I'm just not the kind of guy to carry spare mags.

Granted, scary encounters / events could definitely change that.
But, I've made the decision that being armed (period. 100% in all allowed locations / situations) is about the best I'm going to personally pull off.

Come on Bro; I was 72 last week, and carry multiple spare mags every day. I hope I don’t need that many, but if I do; I’ll be damn glad I have them. Plus, the quickest way to remedy a malfunction with a bottom feeder is with a mag change.
Now, like you; my carry and range guns never malfunction. BUT, if they ever do (at the worst possible time in my entire life); I’ll be prepared…

 

[BeerHunter]

Come on Bro; I was 72 last week, and carry multiple spare mags every day. I hope I don’t need that many, but if I do; I’ll be damn glad I have them. Plus, the quickest way to remedy a malfunction with a bottom feeder is with a mag change.
Now, like you; my carry and range guns never malfunction. BUT, if they ever do (at the worst possible time in my entire life); I’ll be prepared…

Like you, I'm never without two spare mags on my EDC rig regardless of single or double stack. 🤠

 

[Anduril]

Surviving a meat grinder through hope and a prayer just isn't something I'd ever rely on. Training, more training, lots of practice using those trained skills till the gun in hand is just an extension of the hand, not something you're just holding.

Or one could rely on luck almost exclusively if one chose to as well. Not in my world of course, but everyone has to live in their own world.

I've made the decision that being armed (period. 100% in all allowed locations / situations) is about the best I'm going to personally pull off.

So what you seem to be suggesting is, you're not a "gun guy", just someone who carries a gun with a false sense of security. I'm not surprised, many here are of the same flavor.

I think it's fair to say that I'm not RAMBO, and have no misgivings about it.

 

[Anduril]

Come on Bro; I was 72 last week, and carry multiple spare mags every day. I hope I don’t need that many, but if I do; I’ll be damn glad I have them. Plus, the quickest way to remedy a malfunction with a bottom feeder is with a mag change.
Now, like you; my carry and range guns never malfunction. BUT, if they ever do (at the worst possible time in my entire life); I’ll be prepared…

That's a fair point.
IF (repeat "if") I were inclined to carry a spare mag (or two), I would probably just carry an entire separate handgun (as a backup gun).

Maybe the real truth is, given my job, I already have a veritable crap-load of things to carry around.
Really not all that interested in spare magazines (but did give due consideration to higher capacity double-stacks in 9mm - vs. .45 which would hold about half that.)
The flip side is I also don't carry a 1 or 2 shot derringer, either -- for the same reason.
Think: Middle of the road -- and that's fine by me, and I would not question or fault anyone who felt they needed more than the middle ground.

And is it really fair to say I'm not a "gun guy"?
IDK. Maybe??? (At least for handguns.) I'm definitely more into long-distance shooting as a hobby, and pretty much view EDC handguns simply for self-defense.
I'll go with friends to the range to shoot handguns, but let's face it -- Glocks can get pretty boring, pretty quickly.

 

[Anduril]

I could have replied more succinctly: I am not a pack mule.

There is only so much gear I am willing to carry on an EDC basis.
I've decided not to carry spare mags.

I'm also not kidding myself: When EDC becomes a hassle, I simply won't do it. (or will stop doing it).

I don't judge those who want to carry spare mags. It's just not for me.
Read into that whatever you want.

(I also don't carry spare body armor, or spare holsters, spare firing pins, or spare flashlights.)
OK, I do have about ten flashlights in the Jeep, but that's due to the flashlight fetish.

 

[brownie]

I think it's fair to say that I'm not RAMBO, and have no misgivings about it.

Well, surviving a meat grinder requires forethought and a modicum of training, not being Rambo. But you've given it some thought [ about carrying a spare mag ] and that forethought brought you to no extra mag.

"And is it really fair to say I'm not a "gun guy"?

I'd think so based on my previous definition of a gun guy--------- "Gun guys= people that carry; people that shoot more than recreationally [ like various pistol matches ]; people who take more than a basics course of handhold, trigger control and sight alignment showing a bare minimum of skills.

Plan for the worst, hope for the best.

"I'm also not kidding myself: When EDC becomes a hassle, I simply won't do it. (or will stop doing it)."

The very definition of a non gun guy. I like your definition much better than mine.

 

[deadeyedick]

So, that all raises a question, in the context of your own experience and perspective... What is "enough" training?

There's no real way to quantify what constitutes "enough" training. You can do everything right and still die. Hell, even military Tier 1 operators get killed sometimes, and it probably isn't due to a lack of training.

If you manage to survive a gunfight unscathed, I'd say you had enough training.

 

[racer88]

There's no real way to quantify what constitutes "enough" training. You can do everything right and still die. Hell, even military Tier 1 operators get killed sometimes, and it probably isn't due to a lack of training.

If you manage to survive a gunfight unscathed, I'd say you had enough training.

Agreed, of course. My point was that Brownie seems to look down his nose at those who have not trained beyond the basic marksmanship / CCW courses. And of course, I agree with him about that not being adequate on a practical level. My intent was to ask him at which point (if there is one) would he be satisfied that said people are no longer among the "unwashed."

Mind you, throughout my professional and "gun" life, I have sought to continuously improve my skills. "Constant and never ending improvement." Of course, we all also have our priorities and can dedicate only "so much" to firearms training. I don't carry a gun "professionally." I'm not LE or a body guard or an operator. So, I would expect people in those professions to have and get more training.

That all said, even at my level of proficiency, I think I'm ahead of 98% of the rest of the nation's gun owners.

 

[Rick McC.]

Surviving a meat grinder through hope and a prayer just isn't something I'd ever rely on. Training, more training, lots of practice using those trained skills till the gun in hand is just an extension of the hand, not something you're just holding.

Or one could rely on luck almost exclusively if one chose to as well. Not in my world of course, but everyone has to live in their own world.

I've made the decision that being armed (period. 100% in all allowed locations / situations) is about the best I'm going to personally pull off.

So what you seem to be suggesting is, you're not a "gun guy", just someone who carries a gun with a false sense of security. I'm not surprised, many here are of the same flavor.

I was always taught that “The Lord helps those who help themselves”…. 👍