[racer88]

I'd say about half an hour. Helps if I drink some orange juice or something.

 

[racer88]

I thought I had video of me at the TF course doing the mag change drill, but I can't find it.

 

[racer88]

Look in the "Fiction" section.

Nope... we all did that drill. Was fun.

 

[racer88]

Pistol reloads are one thing that I believe have learned to perform pretty quickly, whether it's an emergency (slide lock) or tactical reload. Even with revolvers and speedloaders I'm not half bad, and I'm left-handed which puts me at disadvantage to begin with.

Cool camera mount / angle.

 

[racer88]

One school of thought however, if I can't get the job done with the full magazine I'm carrying.....

An extra mag (or more) goes deeper than just the extra number of rounds on hand. It also accounts for the possibility of a mag malfunction.

But back to capacity... and your quoted comment above... Is that assuming one assailant? What about six assailants?

 

[racer88]

At six assailants, I'd better be able to pick out the leader quick, and hope the rest scatter.
To be clear: I am definitely NOT saying extra mags are pointeless.
I'm saying: That at nearly age 60, I know myself fairly well -- and I'm just not the kind of guy to carry spare mags.

Granted, scary encounters / events could definitely change that.
But, I've made the decision that being armed (period. 100% in all allowed locations / situations) is about the best I'm going to personally pull off.

It's a personal decision, of course. I carry one extra mag in my front non-dominant-side pocket in a pocket mag holster. It's utterly unobtrusive. I wouldn't know it's there, except that I know it's there.

That's my "compromise" vs adding another thing to my belt and having to worry about it being concealed or "printing." It's not as fast as a mag on a belt. But that's where I am for now.

 

[racer88]

It's been estimated that about 1% of gun carriers ever take any training other than what's required to get their ticket. It's estimated that in 2019, 6,000,000 people carried a gun daily in the US. Leading one to estimate the number of people who take some formal training with their handgun which would be about 60,000. I seriously doubt 60K people take training but going by the 1% number of those who do seems to suggest just that.

Gun guys= people that carry; people that shoot more than recreationally [ like various pistol matches ]; people who take more than a basics course of handhold, trigger control and sight alignment showing a bare minimum of skills.

It's ALL good, now I'm one who doesn't shoot but once a year when my brother comes down for Xmas, BUT, I've got oodles of time on guns to the tune of 1.2 million rounds through pistols, more high level training on staying alive with a handgun than most will ever attain.

I once stopped shooting for 5 years in the mid 90's. When I picked up the shooting box and went for the first time in that 5 years, the proprioception was still there for all the skills. With the exception of the trigger finger needing more tune up to get to that 5 rds a second again [ 4 per was like oh so ho hum LOL ]

I'm no longer a gun guy, many times not carrying a handgun for weeks during a motor trip with my brother or crossing into Canada or Mexico [ verboten ]. Just taking the PUG 22mag in the tank bag [ which goes every where with me when off the motor.

So, that all raises a question, in the context of your own experience and perspective... What is "enough" training?

You said that very few people get ANY training beyond the bare minimum "Concealed Carry Class." And I'd bet dollars to donuts you (or whoever "estimated") are right about that. I have no doubts. Even 1% may be generous / optimistic.

SO... If a gun owner / carrier takes one more class beyond the CCW class.... or four private sessions with a pistol instructor.... Is that enough to spring them from the "prison of Brownie's consternation?" Are they OK at that point, in your eyes? Or do they have to take more? Two classes? Ten classes? Yearly classes?

At what point is a gun person considered "respectable" in your eyes? And is it a reasonable expectation?

 

[racer88]

There's no real way to quantify what constitutes "enough" training. You can do everything right and still die. Hell, even military Tier 1 operators get killed sometimes, and it probably isn't due to a lack of training.

If you manage to survive a gunfight unscathed, I'd say you had enough training.

Agreed, of course. My point was that Brownie seems to look down his nose at those who have not trained beyond the basic marksmanship / CCW courses. And of course, I agree with him about that not being adequate on a practical level. My intent was to ask him at which point (if there is one) would he be satisfied that said people are no longer among the "unwashed."

Mind you, throughout my professional and "gun" life, I have sought to continuously improve my skills. "Constant and never ending improvement." Of course, we all also have our priorities and can dedicate only "so much" to firearms training. I don't carry a gun "professionally." I'm not LE or a body guard or an operator. So, I would expect people in those professions to have and get more training.

That all said, even at my level of proficiency, I think I'm ahead of 98% of the rest of the nation's gun owners.

 

[racer88]

Likely right too.

I'm "shootin" for 99.9%!

I will agree that what we commonly see at public ranges is fairly alarming... in terms of an utter lack of knowledge and skills.

 

[racer88]

Look no further than the back sides of the baffles at the FWC range.
Every time I go, it's more and more swiss cheese.

It's getting the point of "Baby Swiss cheese!"

 

[racer88]

A worthy goal, but on my best day I wasn't likely in the top 1%.

Top 1% of the population at large? Dude, you are probably in the top 0.1%, and that may be conservative.

 

[racer88]

I am always truly astonished at that and end up asking myself the same question: "HOW can THAT possibly happen?" I know the answers - intellectually, of course - but GEEZ!!!!!

Thread drift alert!

Because many people truly believe that adding an optic to a rifle is no more than tightening the scope mount screws. They think that all you have to do is bolt it to the rifle and start shooting. They literally know NOTHING about the need for sighting in and zeroing. That's why you can see actual "groups" in the baffles. They keep aiming, firing and seeing a pristine paper target while wondering where the shots are going.

 

[racer88]

Looks like a bunch of people used it as a target instead of taking the time to go set one up properly

I wish that was the simple explanation. But it's not. I've seen FAR too many of these newbies showing up at the range having NO idea why they can't hit the target with their new scope. They literally do not know that scopes have to be sighted in for the rifle.

 

[racer88]

They know nothing about eye relief, leveling the scope, torque specs or parallax either..I don't do public ranges

Yep. True about those functional tenets and processes of mounting scopes on rifles. Unfortunately, I do not have access to a private range.

 

[racer88]

Back to topic at hand, how fast can you reload your carry pistol?

Looks like my MantisX has just such a drill in the app! I will have to give it a try and see how it goes.

Stand by for report!

 

[racer88]

OK! First go at this with a timer. The MantisX feature is pretty neat. My times... not so neat!

Bear in mind that I'm drawing the "fresh" mag from my pocket rather than a mag carrier on my belt. I fumbled a few times. Best time was 3.5 seconds from beep to shot.

 

[racer88]

Tried it again with the spare mag in a carrier on my belt (without a cover garment). Much faster - no surprise.
Fastest time was 2.88. Average was a full second faster than drawing from pocket.

Need lots more practice with this!

 

[racer88]

I suspect far more people think they can reload faster than that, than actually can.

I suspect you are right. And that's why I did not speculate as to my "reload prowess." The numbers don't lie, eh? I believe I'm the only one here who has posted numbers.

Realistically, I don't think I can practice enough to get below 2 seconds... or possibly even 3 seconds... if I'm drawing the mag from my pocket (in a "mag packer" pocket holster), which is how I carry the spare in the real world. I don't see myself wearing a mag carrier on my belt other than at a pistol course.

Furthermore, I don't see myself getting into "matches" or gun games, where I'd be executing mag changes as a matter of routine. I simply don't have that massive amount of discretionary spare time in my life. Not now. Not yet.

So, I can practice at home... since I can't drop mags at the local indoor range without risking them bouncing down-range where I cannot retrieve them. I am certain I can do better than these first attempts (ever) under "duress" / timing. But will I get below 2 seconds drawing from a pocket mag holster? I don't see it. I think under 3 would be remarkable enough.

 

[racer88]

One more additive...... you can use all that modern technology to help you gauge where you are at.....but when it comes to the real life situation ......practice it on the range under duress.....it makes a difference....

Some say that dry fire isn't the same as live fire practice. Well, yeah.... But that doesn't render dry fire useless or a waste of time. Pretty much every pro shooter on the planet uses dry fire practice. A LOT of it.

Of course live fire reloads, holster draws, etc... are the best practice. However, the reality is that NONE of the local ranges (in my area) allow it or are set up for it.

So, the only option is to rent a private bay (and arrange for an RSO) at a range over an hour's drive away. Well, that's not going to happen on any kind of regular basis. The only practical (and affordable) way to do that is with a group. We'd be lucky to arrange that twice a year. Some of us have jobs and families. That's just reality. Few of us have our own backyard ranges. That would be awesome. But my neighbors would not be very happy.

So... I trudge on and practice sucking as a "pistolero" at home... and use some technology to help measure progress. 😐

The other advantage of the tech / gizmos: It makes it more FUN. Dry fire practice can be BORING. Getting some feedback helps a lot to make it more interesting. And that means you're more likely to do it frequently.

Frankly, I'm a bit disappointed when some here seem to revel in disparaging any effort to practice and improve that aren't in the same fashion of those who have access to private ranges or who trained and practiced differently "back in the good ol' days."

Maybe I'm reading it incorrectly, but it sure seems that way. Instead of, "That's kinda cool, tell me more about it," we get, "That's not the same as live fire practice." Well... no S**T!

I would think that ANY and all efforts towards the honing of skills would be ENCOURAGED rather than discouraged.

 

[racer88]

Expense shouldn't be a closed gate to "staying alive practice". Having spent something on the order of 60K in expenses traveling for 2 decades for training all over the US, with someone who can afford as well as impart "stay alive" skills, I find the reasons given like "it's too far away", "it costs too much to rent a range" "don't have the time as I work" all sorta funny.

I worked 80-90 hours a week, found time to shoot two matches every weekend for 8-10 years. Found time to travel long distances and the necessary funds to attend courses that were going to give me a leg up where staying alive with a handgun is concerned.

Bottom line, it's about ones priorities, not so much finances, time/expenses.

Oh, I see... so because my priorities aren't the same as yours... well, I guess I will just have to go through life sucking at my firearms skills, according to the "Tao of Brownie."

Wow. Just wow.

How many of my local contemporaries - there are PLENTY of them here - are FREQUENTLY practicing LIVE FIRE holster draws and reloads, locally or elsewhere?