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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I can reload and fire again in under 1.5 seconds with all my semi's. Here's a picture of my mag dropping to the ground with my hand already on the second mag coming up to recharge the pistol.

I think it was Caleb who caught me on autopilot ☺

I haven't really practiced speed reloads in many years, yet the proprioception is there from decades of training on recharging the pistols.

Ever been times on reloads?

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Don't know how fast I reload. Looking at your pic, I think it would be faster if the next mag was already in your hand when the mag release is engaged. The second pic would show both mags, one dropping and the next in view headed to the magwell. Am I being too nittpicky?
Economy of motion doing both the mag drop and spare mag access at the same time. By doing it the way I did, if the mag doesn't drop out of the gun, I have time to flick it out as the recharge mag is being presented.

Not too nitpicky to me sir.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
At the last class, I was doing them in 3-4 seconds as I recall
Practice will reduce that by 50%. That's a LONG time when "you're in it".
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
That was you and shooter4 demonstrating the "Wall of Bullets"drill, if memory serves! (y)(y)

If recently practiced with either 1911 or P229 EDCs, reloads take under 2 seconds, but at EBL's recent TFP course I was an RO for while using my new P365X-M for gaining experience with that weapon system, my performance in the "3-target, shoot 2, mag change, shoot 4" drill showed me that mag changes took way too long and I need A LOT more practice to be better prepared to put that one in my EDC lineup! 🤠
That was shooter4 and myself during the "wall of bullets" drill sir.

The decade or a little more of shooting matches where a dozen or more reloads were demanded in the courses of fire for the various stages every weekend afforded me ample opportunities to refine the reload on a stock gun [ NO magwell scoop the mag up but stock mag wells ]. Figure 10 a shoot, two shoots a weekend for 10 years would seem to suggest 10,000 reloads under pressure of the timer.

I never practiced reloads all that much outside competitions under the clock. But it got me where I am today with reloads as my mag carrier/s all sit in the same location [ 9 Oclock ].
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
If I had to guess I’d say a couple seconds. The gun I carry now has no magwell on it. Some of the other Commanders I carry have one and are a tad quicker. I enjoy using a single stack and getting twice as much practice at the classes. 🤪
Also practice it standing next to the bed with my arms stretched out over it. No sense dropping them onto the tile floor just to do a few.
All my speed reloading had the mags hitting the ground. Those mags were for matches, I'll not use my carry mags for practice.
 

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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
For me, on any given average day, the time to reload would probably be on the order of well..... several tens of seconds at best.
That - Since I don't carry spare mags, but do keep some in the Jeep center console and of course, in the safe (though not all of those are loaded, and if loaded, probably not loaded with hollow points.)
It would take a good bit of time to physically get to them.

One school of thought however, if I can't get the job done with the full magazine I'm carrying.....

Everyone's mileage varies.
I pretty much know that I'm not going to reliably carry spare mags on my person, so I just don't focus on it too much after that.
Armed every day? Yes.
I agree with Racer, whether a single stack or double stack, an extra mag that's accessible on your person is well [ for many reasons ] just good forethought.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
At six assailants, I'd better be able to pick out the leader quick, and hope the rest scatter.
To be clear: I am definitely NOT saying extra mags are pointeless.
I'm saying: That at nearly age 60, I know myself fairly well -- and I'm just not the kind of guy to carry spare mags.

Granted, scary encounters / events could definitely change that.
But, I've made the decision that being armed (period. 100% in all allowed locations / situations) is about the best I'm going to personally pull off.
Surviving a meat grinder through hope and a prayer just isn't something I'd ever rely on. Training, more training, lots of practice using those trained skills till the gun in hand is just an extension of the hand, not something you're just holding.

Or one could rely on luck almost exclusively if one chose to as well. Not in my world of course, but everyone has to live in their own world.

I've made the decision that being armed (period. 100% in all allowed locations / situations) is about the best I'm going to personally pull off.


So what you seem to be suggesting is, you're not a "gun guy", just someone who carries a gun with a false sense of security. I'm not surprised, many here are of the same flavor.
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 · (Edited)
That's one of the shortcomings of "gun" forums, in my estimation...

Gun guys often do not really fit in very well.
It's been estimated that about 1% of gun carriers ever take any training other than what's required to get their ticket. It's estimated that in 2019, 6,000,000 people carried a gun daily in the US. Leading one to estimate the number of people who take some formal training with their handgun which would be about 60,000. I seriously doubt 60K people take training but going by the 1% number of those who do seems to suggest just that.

Gun guys= people that carry; people that shoot more than recreationally [ like various pistol matches ]; people who take more than a basics course of handhold, trigger control and sight alignment showing a bare minimum of skills.

It's ALL good, now I'm one who doesn't shoot but once a year when my brother comes down for Xmas, BUT, I've got oodles of time on guns to the tune of 1.2 million rounds through pistols, more high level training on staying alive with a handgun than most will ever attain.

I once stopped shooting for 5 years in the mid 90's. When I picked up the shooting box and went for the first time in that 5 years, the proprioception was still there for all the skills. With the exception of the trigger finger needing more tune up to get to that 5 rds a second again [ 4 per was like oh so ho hum LOL ]

I'm no longer a gun guy, many times not carrying a handgun for weeks during a motor trip with my brother or crossing into Canada or Mexico [ verboten ]. Just taking the PUG 22mag in the tank bag [ which goes every where with me when off the motor.
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
So, that all raises a question, in the context of your own experience and perspective... What is "enough" training?

IMO, one can't have enough training when the wolves come calling.

You said that very few people get ANY training beyond the bare minimum "Concealed Carry Class." And I'd bet dollars to donuts you (or whoever "estimated") are right about that. I have no doubts. Even 1% may be generous / optimistic.

SO... If a gun owner / carrier takes one more class beyond the CCW class.... or four private sessions with a pistol instructor.... Is that enough to spring them from the "prison of Brownie's consternation?"

First, It's not consternation. Second, one should attempt to be all they can be in any endeavor they may venture into.

Are they OK at that point, in your eyes? Or do they have to take more? Two classes? Ten classes? Yearly classes?

Well, lets address that for a minute. I know people who've attended my Fof courses with multiple front sight press school [ many top tier in the US ] who died in every scenario they were put through. So it's not so much the number of courses they've taken, but the direct relationship between what skills they've acquired through those schools and the reality of the street. Some courses will make you a superstar in their eyes, but that superstar status is a hard pill to swallow when you're arse just got killed multiple times in various Fof scneario's because you're a one trick pony [ front sight press ]. And there's part of the crux of it Racer, people believe they'll acquit themselves at least at a level of "well" with little to no formal training on the streets, but Fof is an ego deflator of the highest magnitude.

I'll go one better by stating that anyone whose been through a threat focused pistol course anywhere [ and thus has multiple skills at their disposal ] will always fair better than a formally trained only FSP shooter. And FSP trained are likely 90-99% of people who have any training at all to begin with in the US. Not because that's what I taught others, but because what I've taught others was taught to me long ago and those skills stood me well in meat grinders. I know for a fact, if I'd not had the skills gifted to me I had, I'd have died long ago in one of those meat grinders.

Some may read this and believe I'm just hawking wares of the pistol skills, nothing could be further from the truth. I no longer train people, I'm retired, so people are more than welcome to take the above with a grain of salt or a voice of experience.

We have a former Fla. trooper here who worked for over 20 years with that agency. One of the best FSP shooters I've run around where repeated accuracy is concerned. The first lunch break of the first day of his first pistol course, he walked up to me and basically said he thought he was good to go all those years on the streets and in just 3 hours was convinced what he'd been trained in all those years was a waste of time where it came to not growing cold forever. There's hundreds of these people out there who've discovered exactly the same after taking a threat focused course of fire.


At what point is a gun person considered "respectable" in your eyes?

Well, that's a hard question to answer. I ran in some very well heeled circles where respect was earned through ones experiences and of course, the outcomes. In fact, if you didn't have combat experience, no matter who good you were, they weren't interested in putting you into the lineup. It's really not a matter of my respect or lack thereof of any person here or on other boards. I can tell you this though, one gains much respect from me when they've shown any kind of interest in improving themselves and sought out some training.

And is it a reasonable expectation?
See above in bold
 

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Discussion Starter · #37 · (Edited)
I think it's fair to say that I'm not RAMBO, and have no misgivings about it.
Well, surviving a meat grinder requires forethought and a modicum of training, not being Rambo. But you've given it some thought [ about carrying a spare mag ] and that forethought brought you to no extra mag.

"And is it really fair to say I'm not a "gun guy"?

I'd think so based on my previous definition of a gun guy--------- "Gun guys= people that carry; people that shoot more than recreationally [ like various pistol matches ]; people who take more than a basics course of handhold, trigger control and sight alignment showing a bare minimum of skills.

Plan for the worst, hope for the best.

"I'm also not kidding myself: When EDC becomes a hassle, I simply won't do it. (or will stop doing it)."


The very definition of a non gun guy. I like your definition much better than mine. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #42 ·
Agreed, of course. My point was that Brownie seems to look down his nose at those who have not trained beyond the basic marksmanship / CCW courses. And of course, I agree with him about that not being adequate on a practical level. My intent was to ask him at which point (if there is one) would he be satisfied that said people are no longer among the "unwashed."

Mind you, throughout my professional and "gun" life, I have sought to continuously improve my skills. "Constant and never ending improvement." Of course, we all also have our priorities and can dedicate only "so much" to firearms training. I don't carry a gun "professionally." I'm not LE or a body guard or an operator. So, I would expect people in those professions to have and get more training.

That all said, even at my level of proficiency, I think I'm ahead of 98% of the rest of the nation's gun owners.
Likely right too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #46 ·
I'm "shootin" for 99.9%! :)

I will agree that what we commonly see at public ranges is fairly alarming... in terms of an utter lack of knowledge and skills.
A worthy goal, but on my best day I wasn't likely in the top 1%. :cool:
 

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Discussion Starter · #50 ·
Top 1% of the population at large? Dude, you are probably in the top 0.1%, and that may be conservative.
I appreciate the sentiment but I've never really considered myself as having attained that level.
 

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Discussion Starter · #52 ·
Looks as if they are just about 2 seconds for each from the timer. That's a respectable time, and I know you can go a little faster. You looked too comfortable and not pushing that hard which would suggest less than 2 seconds when it's crunch time
 

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Discussion Starter · #55 · (Edited)
I shoot with a number of Master-level shooters, but I never feel insecure simply because I'm only at the Expert level. I like to remind those guys that I'm never going to have beat them in a gunfight; I only have to be better than the bad guy I'm up against. :cool:
In the Tuesday night steel shoots I'd beat 1/2 dozen gran masters, over a dozen master class shooters every month. I just wasn't into competing all the time, so maybe a dozen shoots over 6 years.

I didn't/don/'t have a level assigned as I wasn't shooting the matches enough. I didn't mind when many of them outclassed me on a course of fire, it's their game not mine.

When I'd shoot against Leatham [ his home range is just 5 miles from my place ], my scores were just a 35-40% increase in time over his. If I'd seen even 50% I'd have considered that more than acceptable [ where he was at one time a world champion for years ].

Oh, and a stock G17 1st or 3rd gen was used in those matches.
 

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Discussion Starter · #56 ·
it was a long day when i had a berm to myself...those were some mags with rounds left in them and i just burned them...for muscle memory...youve seen me make faster mag changes...including the time i burned over 160 rounds during a mad minute...i would normally have a mag on the way out before the one in use is empty...
I remember that, tore them backers up some
 

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Discussion Starter · #62 ·
Thread drift alert!

Because many people truly believe that adding an optic to a rifle is no more than tightening the scope mount screws. They think that all you have to do is bolt it to the rifle and start shooting. They literally know NOTHING about the need for sighting in and zeroing. That's why you can see actual "groups" in the baffles. They keep aiming, firing and seeing a pristine paper target while wondering where the shots are going.

View attachment 79192
View attachment 79193
Looks like a bunch of people used it as a target instead of taking the time to go set one up properly
 

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Discussion Starter · #70 ·
Tried it again with the spare mag in a carrier on my belt (without a cover garment). Much faster - no surprise.
Fastest time was 2.88. Average was a full second faster than drawing from pocket.
View attachment 79212

Need lots more practice with this!
In the words of the famous Mr. Han, "your focus needs more focus". 😯

I suspect far more people think they can reload faster than that, than actually can. As I mentioned, I got my reloading practice in matches, to the tune of something around 10K reloading mag changes. Never did practice reloading my semi's on my own, but I'm convinced those 10K or so mag changes under the timer brought me to the level of speed on a mag change I enjoy today.

Get to 2 seconds or below if you can from underneath the cover garment. Or not, most people think mag change practice isn't important. It’s an easy skill to learn at a basic level, and a vitally important skill to have if you actually need it
 

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Discussion Starter · #73 ·
As a matter of fact, I was timing (sort of) mag changes in my EDC 1911 from underneath cover garment earlier today as a result of this thread reminder. Don't have a timer or Mantis but using mags loaded with dummy rounds, several mag changes from simulated slide lock were right at 2 sec to trigger squeeze. My plan is to make this part of a weekly practice routine and will add a timer when able for recording my progress and building more confidence in that skill. :unsure:
That's a respectable time for anyone who's not been or has been a gamer with thousands of reloads behind them.
 
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