[Johnny_Red]

Howdy, folks. Just found the forums a short while ago, and figured I'd access the combined knowledge of people that have been carrying a lot longer than me.
(Already scanned through the forums, couldn't quite find what I was looking for, thus the brand new thread.)

I've been carrying since February of this year; IWB Crossbreed Supertuck, carrying an XD9 Service in black. Good holster, good gun, good times.

Anyways, story-time. After taking a friend out to dinner and then dropping her off, I was stopped by a local sheriff squad car on my way home. It appears I had let my license tag expire (never got the damned piece of mail).

I pulled off to the side of the road, yada yada, complied with his instructions. Had my driver's license and my CCW permit in my hand, with both hands on top of the wheel. He asks me if I'm currently carrying, I inform him that I was, so far so good.

Eventually, he asks me to step out of the vehicle, and I comply. Then, he asks me to unholster my pistol and hand it to him. I do so, informing him that it is condition one (round in the chamber, ready to go). He attempts to drop the magazine...and is unable to. Eventually, he needs to hand the pistol back to me twice in order to clear it; once to drop the magazine, and once more to rack the slide and get the loose round. It ends up on the hood of his car while he runs my CCW permit.

After that's done, he then proceeds to run the serial number on my pistol. This entire process takes a good long while, and another sheriff pulls up to lend a hand. In the end, he sees that everything is in order, and let's me off with a warning to get my tag renewed.

Now, my question is such. I've been told by some folks that the cop running my pistol's serial number without any probable cause is a 4th amendment breach. What's the real legal bit for this? Are police officers allowed to run a pistol's serial number even if the CCW permit checks out and there's no PC?

It's not the first time I've been stopped by the police, but it was the first time I was stopped while carrying. Since I figure that eventually I'll be stopped again for whatever reason, I see that it would be best to know what's supposed to happen and what to do.

Thanks in advance!

 

[TRINIMAN]

let's me off with a warning to get my tag renewed.

...

Sounds like the kind of stops I like.

No harm....No foul IMHO

 

[brownie]

It's why I won't volunteer to LE at a traffic stop that I'm carrying. :thumsup

I'd be some PO'd to be dragged from the car and waste my time with that horse puck crap when it wasn't necessary to begin with.

If asked, I'll answer. If not asked, it's no one's business unless I'm asked to alight from the vehicle.

Brownie

 

[YARDDOG]

I've yet to have a POS stop unyil I do I'll inform :thumsup

 

[jeiber]

I'm with Triniman. You got out of a ticket, so I wouldn't complain. Not the first story I've heard about police doing a thorough check, and letting you off with a warning for being cooperative.

As far as being critical of the officer for not being familiar with your firearm. People seem to think all police officers are experts in firearms, just because it's one of the tools they use in their jobs. If you had a job in sales where you used a computer all day, would you be labeled as incompetent if some 16yo computer geek knew more about your computer than you did?

Give LEO's a break. Some of them are gun geeks, some of them don't even carry when they're off duty.

Jeff

 

[Mac45]

Actually, running a serial number is not, in and of itself, a violation of your 4th amendment rights. Most departments encourage their officers to check vehicle identification numbers against registrations and to run serial numbers of unusual items legitimately encountered during a routine stop. And there are not a lot of CCP holders encountered during traffic stops. Thus an armed citizen is something of a novelty.

By the way, if an officer requests that you temporarily surrender your pistol and you decide to oblige, ask if he would like you to unload it for him. As jeiber pointed out, many LEO's have little experience with firearms other than their own. We wouldn't want someone to get hurt accidentally.

 

[Old Guy]

I can't go along with this. As I've stated before, I'll inform him I'm carrying IF he asks me to get out of the car. If I have to get out, then I've got a more serious problem than a broken tail light, expired tags, etc.

But what gives him the right to run the serial # of my pistol. What makes him think it might be stolen? Where's the probable cause? Sorry, that's where I'll raise a tactful complaint.

Since he's pulled you over and gotten you out of the car, if he asks to search your car, are you going to say "Yes"? He has no PC, he's just asking. He's on a fishing trip. Same as when he runs the serial # of your Roscoe. I'm not giving up my rights just to avoid a ticket. No, No, and No!

 

[fuzzy03cls]

OP....Did you volunteer the info you were carrying? Or did the LEO ask?

FL law you don't have to say anything to the cop unless he asked.

Also, I wouldn't get into a pissing match with a cop over something simple. If you didn't do anything wrong, & you have nothing to hide, let him be the man & search away.
Being an ass is a good way to get a beat down, or get run in on a bs charge. I have seen it happen, Has happened to me, & have heard it happen from other LEO's I know.

 

[RadTek]

I guess I just subscribe to the, "I'm not doing anything wrong, I've got nothing to hide" thought. As well as the "let the man do his job" thought too. So, he's holding me up a few minutes...big deal. He's just doing his job that he/she feels they need to do for whatever reasons they have. Reasons I may not fully understand....I'm not a LEO. I can tell you, my job requires me to do some very odd things with our patients sometimes. All routine and SOP. But, we don't nessicarily take the time to explain WHY we're doing everything either. Ever had an injured wrist, knee, or ankle x-rayed....ever wondered why in the heck we twist your injured limb around in a pretzel? If it wasn't broken..it is now, right? :laughing We don't tell you why, we just do it because it's required to get the proper diagnostic images to determine what's going on. To go into detail as to WHY it's required would take up a good deal more of your's and our time and, truly prolonging an uncomfortable event for you anyway. It may make you mad we're doing it, but, we still have to do it. We're just doing our job. Your lack of understanding doesn't alter the fact we have to do it.

If I feel I'm being done wrongly or they are doing their job in a way I feel is out of line, the side of the road is no place to get into a jousting match with a LEO anyway. That's a battle best suited for a more neutral time anyway and most likely with someone a little higher up the food chain.

As far as informing or not informing.....I see it this way, it's a very teeny inconvenience for me. We all know that traffic stops can be the most dangerous tasks LEO's undertake. The last thing I want sitting alongside a busy highway is a SUPRISED, already nervous and on edge, possibly still green, armed LEO!!

Besides, I'm broke...and from what I've seen, informing and being very cooperative seems to increase chances of warnings vs. citations. I am certain throwing an attitude and playing lawyer on the side of the road with a LEO is pretty much a guaranteed ticket for whatever they can drum up! I need all the "luck" and help I can get..:rolf:thumsup

 

[brboyer]

FL law you don't have to say anything to the cop unless he asked.

There is no such requirement in Florida.

It is perfectly legal to say "no" to the "Are there any guns in the car" question during a 'normal' traffic stop.

 

[deadeyedick]

I agree that running the serial number of a gun being lawfully carried by a CWF licensee is nothing more than a fishing trip. And quite frankly, if the officer is incapable of safely taking custody of that firearm, asking you to surrender it is not only pointless, but dangerous as well. Having said that, the side of the road is not the place to start arguing about it.

 

[user7483]

And if you do say no and then a subsequent search of the vehicle reveals that you were lying and a gun is in the car guess where you will be? Face down in the concrete with a knee to the back of your neck and a gun to your head.

 

[brboyer]

And if you do say no and then a subsequent search of the vehicle reveals that you were lying and a gun is in the car guess where you will be? Face down in the concrete with a knee to the back of your neck and a gun to your head.

My post clearly indicated that it was legal, which it is.

The action you describe above is arguably a civil rights violation.

If LEO's are searching my vehicle, it's because I'm already under arrest for something (or at least cuffed and stuffed, while the LEO performs an investigation based on Reasonable Suspicion that a crime was, is or will be committed) - therefore my disclosure of legally stored weapons would have necessarily been re-evaluated.

I doubt they will yank be out of the patrol car to throw me on the ground and assault me with a deadly weapon.

 

[Evo1]

Actually, running a serial number is not, in and of itself, a violation of your 4th amendment rights.

Not true. Absent PC, such a check is an unwarranted search, and has been ruled by the Supreme Court to be unconstitutional (Arizona v. Hicks 480 U.S. 321 (1987)). The ruling was that, absent probable cause, the police have no authority to search items in plain view (specifically, the case involved checking serial numbers, which the court ruled is a search under the 4th Amendment). Unless the officer has PC to believe the gun is stolen, checking the SN is illegal. If he sees the number in plain view, he is allowed to memorize it and check it later, but he may not copy the number down or record it in any way (except from memory), nor detain you while he runs the check. I know some people who place tape over the SN (covering it is not illegal, only obliterating it is), because the police are not authorized to look under the tape without PC. Also, unless he has reason to believe that you are a prohibited person (felon, etc.), his running your CWL is highly questionable.

Keep in mind, you are not required to inform the officer of your carry status, and you are not required to show him your CWL (unless he becomes aware that you are armed). While some people see it as a "courtesy", there are legitimate reasons not to do it.

The first is a simple "on principle" reason. Why would you ever voluntarily waive a constitutional right? Why would you cooperate, any more than required, with a process in which all information you give is being collected to in order to justify arresting you? Now, we've all heard the "I don't have anything to hide" argument. But every time an officer asks you a question (or worse, you volunteer information), you have to remember that the actual unspoken part of that question is "...so that I can determine whether or not I can arrest you." The more information you give, the more it's likely to make him believe he can. The less you give, the less likely he can. That's virtually always going to be true, even if the risk is low either way.

Second, and this case is a good example, most officers are largely clueless when it comes to guns, even the ones they carry (let alone something they don't). This is a serious safety issue for YOU. I've seen officers attempt to clear a gun while pointing it at themselves, at the subject, at passersby, at their partners, etc. And we've probably all seen this video of the cop shooting himself in the foot with his own Glock. I don't hand loaded weapons to ANYONE, unless I'm forced to (such as if the officer has legitimate reason know I'm armed and demands to secure it). That's a basic firearms safety rule, and I won't violate it just to be "courteous".

Third (this is actually a continuation of reason #1), police officers are no more experts in the law than they are on guns. They will violate your rights quite frequently simply out of ignorance, and they may very well arrest you even though you don't think you have (and may not have) broken any law, because they very often don't - and are not required to - know the law. While you'll eventually get out, you don't want to spend any time in jail if you don't have to, and you don't want to incur the costs of a lawyer/bail bondsman/etc. if you don't have to.

Fourth, some officers are just not competent in their job. They may be too jumpy when dealing with an armed citizen, and be too ready to react with force, even when it is not justified. For example, let's say you carry a 1911 in condition one (locked and loaded). The officer takes your gun, puts his finger in the trigger guard, deactivates the thumb safety, and then, while attempting to clear the weapon, points it right at your chest. How would you react? If you would move in any way, how fast? If he doesn't trust you enough to allow you to retain your weapon during a traffic stop, how much of a threat does he take you to be? If you move quickly, or, as a reflex, grab for the barrel, is there a real possibility he may shoot you, believing you are a threat? Yes, an officer has the right to take steps to protect his safety. But so do you. And not setting events I can't later control into motion by revealing my carry status to an officer is one of my primary ways of doing this.

You have the right to keep your mouth shut. It's virtually never in your best interest to waive that right. Oh, and an officer is not "doing his job" if he's violating your rights. You are making a mistake if you are assisting him in that.

 

[adog88]

Cops

I have adopted the "Don't ask, don't tell policy.":dancingbanana Needless to say, you are legally carrying a gun, just as he is. Nowhere in Florida Statutes does it say that you must inform the officer that you are carrying a gun.

 

[YARDDOG]

Traffic stop :Officer> Licence registration & proof of insurance OH BY THE WAY ANY DRUGS OR WEAPONS IN THERE?? The ansewr better be YES, with hands on stearring wheel

 

[daytona]

Where i live it's a gimme they ask are there any weapons so why not just tell him and hand him your permit. With my luck he would be pissed he had to ask.

 

[Evo1]

Traffic stop :Officer> Licence registration & proof of insurance OH BY THE WAY ANY DRUGS OR WEAPONS IN THERE?? The ansewr better be YES, with hands on stearring wheel

Actually, you don't have to answer at all. Refusal to answer (exercise of your 5th Amendment right) is not probable cause for a search (or even reasonable suspicion). That's not to say an officer might not get nasty over it, but any attempt by him to force the issue is unconstitutional and grounds for a law suit. Or, you could just say "I have nothing illegal in the car", which is the truth, and again, does not give him probable cause or reasonable suspicion for search or further detainment.

Where i live it's a gimme they ask are there any weapons so why not just tell him and hand him your permit. With my luck he would be pissed he had to ask.

He can be pissed all he wants, but you've answered him, you've answered him truthfully, you've given him all the information to which he's entitled (actually more, since you have no obligation to answer the question at all) and you haven't given him any legal reason to go further. In other words, you've properly exercised your constitutional rights to protect yourself from further governmental intrusion into your private life. The only reason officers have assumed they have the authority to demand this information (which they don't), is because people continue to allow them to overstep their authority. If everyone knew their rights and exercised them, this misconception on their part would disappear.

 

[GatorFL]

I think you did the right thing. You were carrying, you helped him out in clearing the gun and in return he ran the S/N and let you off with a warning. Sounds like WIN-WIN to me.

If he had an inkling of doubt there is no way you would have cleared the gun for him.

 

[Evo1]

I think you did the right thing. You were carrying, you helped him out in clearing the gun and in return he ran the S/N and let you off with a warning. Sounds like WIN-WIN to me.

If he had an inkling of doubt there is no way you would have cleared the gun for him.

If he had no doubt, why did he run it? The only reason to do that is because he believes it is stolen. If he didn't believe it, and didn't have PC to believe it, his action was illegal. So, in return for helping him out, he violated the poster's constitutional rights by conducting an illegal search. That doesn't sound like any kind of trade I'd wanna make. "Hey, I won't write you a ticket for expired tags if you let me detain you for an additional chunk of your time to conduct an illegal fishing expedition to see if I can dredge up some evidence to arrest you for a felony." Yeah, that sounds like a good idea.

I really don't understand why people think it's okay for an officer to violate your constitutional rights as long as he doesn't write you a minor non-moving violation ticket for something you actually did. Would you let a police officer come search your home as long as he doesn't write you a speeding ticket you deserve? Is it acceptable for them to plant video cameras in your house just because you know you aren't doing anything illegal? Yes, running an SN is a relatively minor infringement of your rights, at least if you know the gun is legal (and assuming there's no mistake where it comes back stolen or something), but it's still a violation of your rights and of the law.

Don't get me wrong, I grew up with the standard white, middle-class belief that the police were your friends, just there to protect you. But then I worked as an officer for several years. As I like to say now, I was never afraid of the police until I was one. Once I had an inside understanding of what their function really is, and how bad things can go for law-abiding citizens who don't understand it, my view changed dramatically. I'm not anti-LEO. Many of my friends and family are still cops, and I've never personally had a negative experience with them. But I know plenty of people who have. I don't do the police's job for them by waiving my rights and I don't cooperate with their attempts to go beyond their authority. I'll be friendly and cooperative as long as they stay within the bounds of their legal authority. But if they ask for information to which they are not entitled, especially if the only reason for them to have it is to incriminate me in criminal activity, then I will politely decline. If they take offense, then they need to get a new job.