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Discussion Starter #1
Compare to the pre-41F rush, suppressor sales are down from what I can tell.

Is anyone here purchasing NFA items these days? I'm specifically wondering about post-41F purchases, not pre-41F stuff that's in the queue.

I'm not. Two reasons though.

- Getting married in October. All large purchases on hold. My other half loves guns and gives me carte blanche with buying them, but not at the moment.

- CLEO notification bugs the heck out of me. I want clarification on what happens to the notifications. To be honest I'd like to see that provision removed entirely.

That being said, the only NFA items that really interest me are suppressors and machine guns. And DDs I guess. :grin

I'm not sold on SBRs since there's plenty of "pistol" options nowadays that get you most of the way there. Spending $200 extra (plus the wait time & registration) to put a stock on a 10" AR just doesn't seem right when you can put one of the braces on and "get it on the green". Heck, there's adjustable braces out there now that pass ATF muster.
 

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I got all mine in before 41F. Mainly because getting all the trustees together for pictures and prints is a pain.

The police are supposed to destroy notifications after 6 months by law. Notifications are no big deal. I have a FFL03, so the CLEO notification isn't new, all FFL applications have that requirement.

41F essentially killed the NFA trust industry by removing the CLEO sign off.
 

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I got all mine in before 41F. Mainly because getting all the trustees together for pictures and prints is a pain.

The police are supposed to destroy notifications after 6 months by law. Notifications are no big deal. I have a FFL03, so the CLEO notification isn't new, all FFL applications have that requirement.

41F essentially killed the NFA trust industry by removing the CLEO sign off.
I'm planning on making a purchase here soon on another SBR. A 12 inch 5.56.
I am the sole trustee on my trust. I only have beneficiaries listed and they are not considered responsible parties.
As a result of that I only need my pic and prints. No biggie. I still prefer the trust because if I pass they easily go to my heirs.
There will be no mother (mine :grin) involved in trying to prevent my prince from inheriting the Kings Arsenal of Liberty.

AF would you mind PM'ing me a sanitary sample CLEO notification letter that you use?
I'm interested to see how it's worded.
 

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Hi Todd. I know you asked AF, but since CLEO notification is also required for FFL renewals I have to send a notification to the Sheriff every 3 years and I figured I'd post my template. It's short, sweet, and to the point:

Sheriff Bob Gualtieri
10750 Ulmerton Road
Largo, FL 33778

Sheriff Gualtieri:

Enclosed you will find a copy of my Federal Firearms License renewal application. I am required by law to send a copy of this application to the Chief Law Enforcement Officer for my jurisdiction. No action is expected nor required on your part.

Sincerely,


My Name
Owner, My D/B/A

The main point of the letter is to make it clear that he isn't expected to do anything with the enclosed copy. He doesn't need to approve it, respond to it, or do anything else with it - I'm just required to send him a copy.

I've been using that template for my CLEO notifications for decades.
 

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Hi Todd. I know you asked AF, but since CLEO notification is also required for FFL renewals I have to send a notification to the Sheriff every 3 years and I figured I'd post my template. It's short, sweet, and to the point:

Sheriff Bob Gualtieri
10750 Ulmerton Road
Largo, FL 33778

Sheriff Gualtieri:

Enclosed you will find a copy of my BATF Form 4 SBR application. I am required by law to send a copy of this application to the Chief Law Enforcement Officer for my jurisdiction. No action is expected nor required on your part.

Sincerely,


John Smith
Executor of the JS TRUST

The main point of the letter is to make it clear that he isn't expected to do anything with the enclosed copy. He doesn't need to approve it, respond to it, or do anything else with it - I'm just required to send him a copy.

I've been using that template for my CLEO notifications for decades.
So than if I change it to the above it should work?
And is it just the letter or do I need to send him a copy of the trust as well since that will technically be who's applying for it?
 

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So than if I change it to the above it should work?
And is it just the letter or do I need to send him a copy of the trust as well since that will technically be who's applying for it?
Instead of saying "BATF Form 4 SBR application" I would say "copy of my Application for Tax Paid Transfer and Registration of Firearm". He may not know what an SBR is and that's the name of the form. Also, I don't know much about trusts - are you the "Executor" of the trust or a "Trustee" of the trust? I thought an "Executor" was a "will" thing (like last will and testament thing). But I'm not an attorney of any kind, and certainly not an estate planning attorney, so whatever the document says your title is would be best I suppose.

Otherwise it looks fine to me. Regarding what else to send in addition to the letter, here's what the instructions for the Form 4 say:

Law Enforcement Notification. The transferee must provide a copy of the Form 4 to the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) who has jurisdiction over the area of the transferee's address shown in item 2a of the Form 4. In addition, if the transferee is other than an individual, a copy of the Form 5320.23, National Firearms Act (NFA) Responsible Person Questionnaire, completed by each responsible person must be provided to their respective chief law enforcement officer. The chief law enforcement officer is considered to be the Chief of Police; the Sheriff; the Head of the State Police; or a State or local district attorney or prosecutor.

So it would seem you need to send:

  1. The letter
  2. A copy of the Form 4
  3. A copy of the 5320.23 for those responsible persons who live in the jursdiction of this particular CLEO
If there were many responsible persons, and if they did not all live in the jurisdiction of the same CLEO, it sounds like only the Responsible Person Questionnaire would have to go to the other CLEOs (for areas other than the jurisdiction for the address in 2a). Since you're the sole trustee that's not an issue for you - but might be for some other trusts.

Hope that helps.
 

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I guess the correct term would be im the 'Trustor'?
I drew it up, it's in my name. No other trustees or anyone is allowed to touch and borrow or use anything on it.
I simply have my son as the sole beneficiary with wife as guardian until he's old enough to own them.
 

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Instead of saying "BATF Form 4 SBR application" I would say "copy of my Application for Tax Paid Transfer and Registration of Firearm". He may not know what an SBR is and that's the name of the form. Also, I don't know much about trusts - are you the "Executor" of the trust or a "Trustee" of the trust? I thought an "Executor" was a "will" thing (like last will and testament thing). But I'm not an attorney of any kind, and certainly not an estate planning attorney, so whatever the document says your title is would be best I suppose.

Otherwise it looks fine to me. Regarding what else to send in addition to the letter, here's what the instructions for the Form 4 say:

Law Enforcement Notification. The transferee must provide a copy of the Form 4 to the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) who has jurisdiction over the area of the transferee's address shown in item 2a of the Form 4. In addition, if the transferee is other than an individual, a copy of the Form 5320.23, National Firearms Act (NFA) Responsible Person Questionnaire, completed by each responsible person must be provided to their respective chief law enforcement officer. The chief law enforcement officer is considered to be the Chief of Police; the Sheriff; the Head of the State Police; or a State or local district attorney or prosecutor.

So it would seem you need to send:

  1. The letter
  2. A copy of the Form 4
  3. A copy of the 5320.23 for those responsible persons who live in the jursdiction of this particular CLEO
If there were many responsible persons, and if they did not all live in the jurisdiction of the same CLEO, it sounds like only the Responsible Person Questionnaire would have to go to the other CLEOs (for areas other than the jurisdiction for the address in 2a). Since you're the sole trustee that's not an issue for you - but might be for some other trusts.

Hope that helps.
2 copies Form 4
2 copies 5320.23 Responsible Persons
2 fingerprint cards per responsible person
2 photos per responsible person

The new form 4 has an extra copy for the local CLEO.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
In theory could we just send it to the head of FDLE?

2 things about that:

- State cop isn't likely to care if someone 400 miles away bought a suppressor.

- Easier to prosecute if it is found the state CLEO isn't abiding by the destruction requirement AFJuvat noted.
 

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2 copies Form 4
2 copies 5320.23 Responsible Persons
2 fingerprint cards per responsible person
2 photos per responsible person

The new form 4 has an extra copy for the local CLEO.
Why two photos and two prints of only one is required from ATF?
Are the police keeping my pics and prints for some reason?
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Why two photos and two prints of only one is required from ATF?
Are the police keeping my pics and prints for some reason?
From what I gather the second copy of everything is also for the ATF. RCR is basically saying the ATF sends you back a third copy of your Form 4 with personal information (photo/SSN, etc...) redacted. The only thing the CLEOs get is your name and address.

That being said, the six month destruction period gives me a little hope. I might step up on some suppressor purchases.

SBRs, not so much.
 

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Why two photos and two prints of only one is required from ATF?
Are the police keeping my pics and prints for some reason?
One for the form 4s, one for the 5320.23s. They go different places at NFA Branch.
 

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2 copies Form 4
2 copies 5320.23 Responsible Persons
2 fingerprint cards per responsible person
2 photos per responsible person

The new form 4 has an extra copy for the local CLEO.
I was discussing only what needs to go to the CLEO along with the letter - not what needs to go to ATF.
 

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I was discussing only what needs to go to the CLEO along with the letter - not what needs to go to ATF.
Ah. Sorry, Brian.

All that needs to go to the CLEO is that third copy of the Form 4.
 

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Ah. Sorry, Brian.

All that needs to go to the CLEO is that third copy of the Form 4.
According to the Form 4 instructions "if the transferee is other than an individual, a copy of the Form 5320.23, National Firearms Act (NFA) Responsible Person Questionnaire, completed by each responsible person must be provided to their respective chief law enforcement officer" as well.
 

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All LEAs were sent an open letter by ATF concerning the change from CLEO signature to CLEO notification.

I will see If I can find a copy and post it here.

https://www.atf.gov/file/105796/download

It is my personal opinion that the CLEO must destroy the notification immediately, if they have no reason to believe that the applicant(s) are prohibited "persons," or risk violation 790.335.
 

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I was originally under the impression that the CLEO copy of the Form 1 did not require a photo, but after just reviewing the instruction on the new (May 2016) version, I now think you also need to attach a photo to the CLEO copy.

On the new 5320.23, the picture box one the CLEO copy is grayed out and does not say to attach a picture.

Is there still a benefit to the trust... not requiring a picture to be sent with the CLEO notification?

I'm so confused.

For those here who understand the prohibitions for DAVID, could a CLEO run you though DAVID just to get your picture without PC - just based upon the notification?
 

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Discussion Starter #19
All LEAs were sent an open letter by ATF concerning the change from CLEO signature to CLEO notification.

I will see If I can find a copy and post it here.

https://www.atf.gov/file/105796/download

It is my personal opinion that the CLEO must destroy the notification immediately, if they have no reason to believe that the applicant(s) are prohibited "persons," or risk violation 790.335.
How do we ensure compliance with this?
 

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How do we ensure compliance with this?
First, go to your CLEO's LEA and ask for any public records concerning the ATF NFA notification policy. If there is not a published policy, ask to see the appropriate person and discuss the ATF notification process and how you think it relates to 790.335. Look at the funny look on the other person's face. Document you discussion.

Submit a Form 1 and send the local CLEO the notification. Wait 9 months and do a FOIA or simply a public records request for anything to do with yourself and your notification. See what pops.

Now in reality, I figure the CLEO is going to do whatever they want to do and you will never know how they handle your notification, but it is fun to fantasize about we the people having oversight over our public officials.

My new sheriff elect has stated on the local talk radio station, that he is in favor of gun registration. I speculate that no opportunity will go to waste.

Just me thinking out loud.
 
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