[jerm09]

Hope this is the correct place.

Is there a consensus as to the most effective pepper spray? I have been ordering Fox in the past, but a buddy thinks that the Mace is the best, also I have read good things about First Defense. I have never had occasion to use any.

I have bought a lot through the years and given to the ladies in my family and others I know. I am wanting some 2 oz and 1/2 oz for the purse.
Once I read that the 1/2 oz should be replaced in a year, but the larger units are OK for maybe 4-5 years. I had some that would not work, but were 6 years old. One that was 4 years old did OK for a test fire.

Any thoughts? Thanks,
Jerry

 

[CJP]

I'm interested in this also. My wife and I both carry pepper spray. One interesting thing I read recently about using pepper spray is to throw it right after you use it. The idea behind this is if the bad guy isn't affected by it he will try to get it from you and use it on you. Any thoughts on this?

 

[jerm09]

I'm interested in this also. My wife and I both carry pepper spray. One interesting thing I read recently about using pepper spray is to throw it right after you use it. The idea behind this is if the bad guy isn't affected by it he will try to get it from you and use it on you. Any thoughts on this?

Hi CJP,

I have read such, and do believe it to a point. My own experience in just testing it to see if it will work is that I must be very sensitive to OC and even when I try extra hard some spray (not foam) comes back on me, and I choke and cough. I usually buy the foam for my use, and especially in my car.

I can't imagine using the spray inside a car, and don't see any alternative to the foam. I doubt that many would ignore it and throw the foam in your face.

I have a best friend who is a member of the NM Mounted Patrol. They work with other agencies, and have the same authority as the agency with which they work at the time.

On a Memorial Day or 4th of July duty at a lake, he tried to stop a problem with several drunks. Three of them decided they would beat him and throw him in the lake. He was alone at the time. As a next to last resort he drew his OC Foam and shot all three. As they were hit each dropped to the ground and could not open his eyes. That stopped their big talk.

I am interested to see if any LE have experience with it, or whatever they use since I am about to order a fairly large amount for me and mine plus a couple of friends.

Regards,
Jerry

 

[J T]

If Fox Labs is good enough for these guys, it's good enough for me.

Here are some of the law enforcement and military agencies using Fox Labs products.

CITIES: Berkeley Springs P.D., West Virgina
Bern P.D., PA
Chapel Hill P.D., North Carolina
Clayton P.D., OH
Coconut Creek P.D. Florida
Dayton S.W.A.T, Ohio
Dubuque P.D., Iowa
Englewood P.D. Ohio
Federal Way P.D. Washington
Franklin P.D. North Carolina
Germantown P.D., Ohio
German Township P.D., Ohio
Grayslake Fire Protection District, IL.
Henderson P.D., NV
Independence P.D. MO.
Indianapolis P.D. Indiana
Lenexa P.D. Kansas
Los Angles Academy, STC Unit, California
Mercer Island P.D. Washington
Miami P.D. Florida
Miami Twp. P.D., Ohio
New Lebanon P.D., Ohio
Newport News P.D Virgina
New York City Parole, New York
Parkland P.D. Florida
Pittsburgh P.D. Pennsylvania
Sugar Creek P.D, Ohio
Swanton Village P.D. Vermont
Tahlequah P.D. Oklahoma
Trenton P.D. New Jersey
Tulsa P.D. Oklahoma
Xenia P.D., Ohio

COUNTIES: Bingham County Sheriff's Department, Indiana
Dakota County Sheriff's Department, Minnesota
Franklin County Sheriff's Department, Ohio
Jackson County Sheriff's Department, Michigan
Kalamazoo County Sheriff's Department, Michigan
Kendall County Sheriff's Department, Illinois
Marion County Sheriff's Department, Ohio
Martin Co. Sheriffs Office, Florida
Montgomery County Sheriff's Department, Ohio
Morgan County Sheriff's Department, West Virgina
Probate Court Delta County, Michigan

STATES: 12th District Court, Michigan
Delaware State police
Game fish & parks, South Dakota
Georgia Dept. Of Children and Youth Services
Michigan Dept. of Corrections
Michigan DNR
Michigan State police
New Hampshire Liquor Commission
New York State Police
North Carolina Dept. of Corrections
Ohio Hwy. Patrol
Ohio Metro Parks
South Dakota Highway Patrol
State of Alaska, PSA
State of Arkansas, L.E. Training Academy
12th District Court, Michigan
Utah Parks & Recreation

FEDERAL: Golden Gate Natl. Park Service, California
Glacier National Park, Montana
National Wildlife Refuge, Arkansas
US Capital Police, Washington, DC
Criminal Investigation Service Dept. of Defense, Ohio
US Department of Defense Police
Watt's Bar Nuclear Plant, Tennessee
Wolf Creek Nuclear Plant, KS


MILITARY: Alaska Air National Guard Department of Army, 98th Area Support Group, Provost Marshall Robins Air Force Base, Georgia US Navy Trident Refit Facility, Kings Bay, Georgia US Army, Bosnia

Not on the list, but Florida DOC is also using Fox.
I buy mine at DefenseDevices.com

 

[jerm09]

Thanks, I ordered some Fox and a few small Mace Triple Action Pocket units, and finally 3 DPS Foam units.

I hope that neither I nor the ones I give them to have a reason to use them, but we try to remain prepared as much as reasonable. Most of them will not carry so this is about the best we can do in addition to using their brains.

Regards,
Jerry

 

[brownie]

My personal opinion is it's a waste of time to try to use OC sprays/foams on combatants. LE have to use it in their force continuum based on their dept SOP's.

I've used it in an official capacity on a few occasions, it can work in some instances to incapacitate but in others it didn't. As well, it's easy to get it all over yourself if the wind isn't cooperating with you, or there is a struggle and the combative transfers it back to you.

I won't carry it, nor rely on it to stop an aggressor. The canister needs to be shaken before use to really be reliable, and if you are being attacked, relying on this stuff to keep the boogeymen at bay is a false sense of security for most people who will not have it in their hand when needed, nor likely be able to get to it in time to begin with.

Brownie

 

[jerm09]

My personal opinion is it's a waste of time to try to use OC sprays/foams on combatants. LE have to use it in their force continuum based on their dept SOP's.

I've used it in an official capacity on a few occasions, it can work in some instances to incapacitate but in others it didn't. As well, it's easy to get it all over yourself if the wind isn't cooperating with you, or there is a struggle and the combative transfers it back to you.

I won't carry it, nor rely on it to stop an aggressor. The canister needs to be shaken before use to really be reliable, and if you are being attacked, relying on this stuff to keep the boogeymen at bay is a false sense of security for most people who will not have it in their hand when needed, nor likely be able to get to it in time to begin with.

Brownie

Hi Brownie,

Although I agree with you basically, it is spray or nothing. The ones I am talking about are not going to carry a gun. Some are in their 60s and 70s and not too strong.

In spite of all the problems it is better than nothing unless the wind blows it into your own eyes. That is a real problem.

I do know some very good and experienced officers who do carry it. That may be partially the result of dept regs, but it is effective on some, and totally ineffective on others.

Thanks for the input, and I always appreciate all the help I can get.

Regards,
Jerry

 

[Rvrctyrngr]

Though not a huge fan of OC sprays....

Fox 5.3
Sabre Red
PunchII
Freeze

Are generally considered to be the top o' the heap. I've got a couple of cans of Fox and PunchII around for specific uses.

 

[inkedott]

I'm with Brownie on this-too unreliable and clumsy. Spray or nothing? Why? There are other options.

 

[jerm09]

I'm with Brownie on this-too unreliable and clumsy. Spray or nothing? Why? There are other options.

They will not carry a gun, they are older adults and not especially strong or fast. Some are as old as 79. Accordingly, whether one thinks it is a good option or not it is the only one except for noise. Of course, there may be an option that I have not thought of, and so if anyone has one I would appreciate knowing.

I will say again that I know some of the best LEOs in the business. While they carry guns they also carry and use OC. In general they find it effective on most people.
I do not agree, based upon their experience, that OC is ineffective or unreliable as a blanket statement. However, one does have to be prepared in the sense that she or he will not have time to search through a purse or pocket, but should have it is hand or close to that in parking lots, etc. Blowback is a problem also.

I am almost blind and coughing just to get the blowback, and although I do not say most are as sensitive to OC as I am, some are. I had a friend who was a Cof P and he, as part of the overall dept training, got sprayed. He called me when he got home that day and asked if I had some eye drops. He had been incapacitated for awhile, and was not really OK for several hours. Could he have carried through an attack on someone immediately after being sprayed? I did not ask so don't know for sure, but based upon his condition at least an hour later I do not think so.

I have read posts where a prisoner did not respond to OC, and once saw a video where a deputy got sprayed and it did not seem to affect him at all. I have an opinion that those who have been sprayed are not as affected as those who have not.
Again it is OC or fist. The choice is clear to me.

Thanks for the comment, and although I disagree in this case I do appreciate the voice of experience and opinions based upon practice. It is just that all experienced folks do not agree as to effectiveness.
Since I have no experience spraying an attacker I have to rely on others, and select who I will believe when there is a conflict.

I sometimes carry OC even though I carry a firearm.

Thanks again, and have a good week-end.

Regards,
Jerry

 

[CJP]

I went through law enforcement training for the National Park Service in 1990 and we had to get maced. I don't know what the difference between mace and pepper spray is but I was totally incapacitated. My eyes felt like they were having sand ground into them and closed involentarily. I couldn't breath, and then there was the snot. About 3 feet of it hanging from my nose. I couldn't do anything let alone fight.
If pepper spray is anything like that I am going to make very sure even a little of it won't blow back in my face.

 

[jerm09]

I went through law enforcement training for the National Park Service in 1990 and we had to get maced. I don't know what the difference between mace and pepper spray is but I was totally incapacitated. My eyes felt like they were having sand ground into them and closed involentarily. I couldn't breath, and then there was the snot. About 3 feet of it hanging from my nose. I couldn't do anything let alone fight.
If pepper spray is anything like that I am going to make very sure even a little of it won't blow back in my face.

Maybe we need a technique to get the BG to let us circle until we have the wind behind us completely.

In this case it is like making sure the sun is in the opponent's eyes and not mine.

Regards,
Jerry

 

[brownie]

I think there's going to be a BIG difference between a professionally trained police officer who can work within a force continuum and decide if pepper spray is warranted where a gun isn't based on a suspects non compliance of orders and isn't under imminent threat of great bodily harm or death at that moment [ or else he'd be drawing his sidearm and skipping that form of applied force ] -------------

vs,

A 79 year old person who hasn't been trained professionally in the use of sprays who is relying on that spray to solve a potential lethal force encounter or is in fear of imminent great bodily harm to stop that threat to their person.

Cops don't use spray when their life in danger for a reason. It's not the correct form of applied force for that scenario. It's no more the correct form of force for the 79 year old who may not be as nimble/agile/quick to react as the average officer on the streets who would not be using it in the same instance a 79 year old who has no other option might use it.

Use of spray in the correct context? -- Fine, but when your arse is on the line or you could die, a non lethal force is not what's called for. A 79 year old could learn to use a handgun as well as carry spray.

Brownie

 

[Rvrctyrngr]

I went through law enforcement training for the National Park Service in 1990 and we had to get maced. I don't know what the difference between mace and pepper spray is but I was totally incapacitated. My eyes felt like they were having sand ground into them and closed involentarily. I couldn't breath, and then there was the snot. About 3 feet of it hanging from my nose. I couldn't do anything let alone fight.
If pepper spray is anything like that I am going to make very sure even a little of it won't blow back in my face.

IMO, OC is worse than CS (Mace)....yes, I've been blasted with both on various occasions. Mace, I could fight through...OC, I was done the first time, second time took everything I had to stay on my feet and make it through what we had to do. That : censored SUX!

 

[jimmills]

I've never had either sprayed in my face, thank goodness.

If it is even remotely like tear gas, I don't want any part of it. I still vividly remember in 1960 on Parris Island, having the whole platoon locked into a tiny little room filled with tear gas so thick you couldn't see through it and having to sing the Marine Corps Hymn 4 times before we were allowed out of the torture chamber. The DI kept telling us somebody was off key.

Jim

 

[brownie]

jimmills,

1960 on Parris Island, having the whole platoon locked into a tiny little room filled with tear gas so thick you couldn't see through it and having to sing the Marine Corps Hymn 4 times before we were allowed out of the torture chamber.

It's not something we'll ever forget is it?

Remember the way we were told to leave the hut? :rolf

Brownie

 

[jerm09]

I think there's going to be a BIG difference between a professionally trained police officer who can work within a force continuum and decide if pepper spray is warranted where a gun isn't based on a suspects non compliance of orders and isn't under imminent threat of great bodily harm or death at that moment [ or else he'd be drawing his sidearm and skipping that form of applied force ] -------------

vs,

A 79 year old person who hasn't been trained professionally in the use of sprays who is relying on that spray to solve a potential lethal force encounter or is in fear of imminent great bodily harm to stop that threat to their person.

Cops don't use spray when their life in danger for a reason. It's not the correct form of applied force for that scenario. It's no more the correct form of force for the 79 year old who may not be as nimble/agile/quick to react as the average officer on the streets who would not be using it in the same instance a 79 year old who has no other option might use it.

Use of spray in the correct context? -- Fine, but when your arse is on the line or you could die, a non lethal force is not what's called for. A 79 year old could learn to use a handgun as well as carry spray.

Brownie

Hi Brownie,

Yes, a 79 year old can learn to shoot, but will not. That is her option, and regardless of what anyone else thinks she will not even considerer it. So while that is a theoretical option it is not a practicable option. It is like saying that having a body guard is an option, but that too is only a theoretical argument.

The fact is, in this case, she is not going to carry a gun, period. So OC is a viable option, and the best available. If it does not work she has done what she could. It is a waste of time to continue to say that she or they should be armed. It is not going to happen.

But I would submit that anyone who is not going to learn and practice with a handgun may not be any better off than with spray. In addition she would not be a danger to others. A gun is as far from what she will do as hiring a bodyguard. So far she has made it without either.

Anyway we can have our own opinions, and I have done what I believe was the best option under the circumstances.

I also early in my military career had to go through the tear gas chamber. I did not ever encounter anyone who was able to ignore it. It was true that it was not a case of being sprayed, but entering a room filled with gas, and removing our gas masks and calling out our Service number. Although different it does give some indication of the reaction to such.

Regards,
Jerry

 

[brownie]

Double post, sorry

Brownie

 

[brownie]

Jerry,

I understand her mindset and deal with people like her at the shop quite often.

I make it very clear to them that if they don't have it in their hand, if they don't prepare the canister by shaking it within a short period of time before they may need it, if they don't get the spray into the perps eyes, if they don't understand it's not lethal and have an unrealistic expectation of it's effectiveness, if they understand it doesn't have any effect on roughly 1 in 10 people randomly chosen from the general population, etc, and they then choose the OC spray fully cognizant of all the above, I'll gladly take their money for a can of spray at the register.

I've done my part by making them aware of the shortcomings and pitfalls of OC, it's their choice and they live and die with that choice. I'm happy, they're happy and we've made some money. You can lead em to the water, but you can't make them drink it :thumsup

Brownie

 

[Cthulhu]

I think one of the biggest risks of sprays as self-defense tools is that too many people buy a can of spray and think they're "protected", though they never tried to use the spray themselves, or received adequate instruction in its use.

The few times I've been asked by co-workers about sprays, I advised them to buy TWO. One to carry and use for defense, the other to try out in a safe environment, following all precautions and manufacturer's recommendations, etc., etc., etc.

An actual defensive encounter is the worst time to find out your defensive spray doesn't work, or that you don't know how to use the bugger.

My two yen,

-JT