[fridaddy]

I will take up the moderator's offer to open a new thread on the issue. Hopefully it will be discussed without personal attacks this time.

I have been pushing this issue myself.

Brownie,
In my case it is done, because the FL legislature has allowed me too. I am not pushing the limits, or "testing the law" I am merely acting in accordance with state law. If the officers do not know any better that is their problem not mine. I am prepared to identify the applicable statue for them. If they choose to go forward with the arrest, they lose their qualified immunity. The law is settled and clear. The statute is not ambiguous except for the to and from provision.

I am constantly amazed by those who take a concealed only or open only position. The attacks against each other serve no purpose. MZA119 statement as to what he was going to do was something that is perfectly legal. I think he is very wise to have a witness. have you seen the misconduct by police against open carry in other states where it is legal. take a look at Utube.

As I have posted before the ignorance of LE when I have called them ahead of time to discuss this issue has been amazing. The funny thing is its not just them it is their lawyers as well.

The typical conversation with 3 agencies has gone like this.
I am planning on open carrying this weekend at place x while H F or C.
You can't do that. We prohibit guns and open carry is illegal.
Please read the preemption statute.
OH, well you can carry but not openly.
Please read 790.25.
Oh, I guess you can, why do you feel the need to do this.
Because it is the LAW of the state of FL. Why do you have illegal signs and rules posted?

I encourage everyone to know the consequences of exercising their rights in the face of police ignorance, but it is our right and the police have an obligation to know the law, not what they think the law is as demonstrated by the many anecdotes posted on these boards.

While LE deserves respect, they have an obligation to know the law.

STEPPING DOWN OFF SOAPBOX

Brownie, and others I am glad to discuss this issue further.

 

[Mac45]

I will say this only once. There is such a thing as the Law of Unintended Consequences. Any course of action that you undertake can produce consequences for which you were not prepared and which are, very often, antithetical to what you hoped to accomplished.

In the case of open carry, it is allowed under state law for the protection of hunters, fishermen and campers who might need a firearm for protection in the wild, far from civilization. It was not designed to allow carte blanche firearms carry in, or near, towns and cities. Now, just so you understand, you do not have a Right to carry a firearm. You have the PERMISSION of the state to carry a firearm under certain conditions. That permission can be revoked at the whim of the legislature at any time. At the moment, the legislature has no reason to revoke the open carry law in Florida. Giving them a reason might work against your stated goals. Unless, of course, your goal is either to have the open carry law rescinded or to provoke conflict with authority for the sake of conflict.

I do not find it unusual that law enforcement officers working suburban or urban areas would not be aware of the law. There is usually no hunting allowed in these areas, camping is usually done in back yards and parks and there is a significant lack of snakes, bears and pumas on the Melbourne or Jacksonville piers. In other words, none of the circumstances that make open carry of a firearm desirable in the wild while pursuing outdoor activities is present where you want to carry your firearm. If you abuse a law, you can lose it.

If you want to change the law to allow open carry anywhere, that is another story. That will only happen if you can convince enough of the citizenry to accept open carry. I do not think that sticking your finger in the eye of law enforcement is going to achieve that goal. Quite the opposite.

I'll say no more on this. I think the reasons for your actions are clear. I just hope that your actions do not bring about negative results. Personally I already have my permission from the state to carry most places, including while hunting, fishing and camping; even on the pier. So knock yourself out.

 

[brownie]

fridaddy,

Since you addressed me specifically in your post, I'll respond.

Mac has spelled it out as succinctly and as plainly as I could have, perhaps more so. "none of the circumstances that make open carry of a firearm desirable in the wild while pursuing outdoor activities is present where you want to carry your firearm" and "In the case of open carry, it is allowed under state law for the protection of hunters, fishermen and campers who might need a firearm for protection in the wild, far from civilization."

The open carry exemption does not give you the right to put the general public in fear or to incite the general public in any way. If you do either, you can find yourself being cuffed and stuffed if you do not comply with LE who respond to either leave or remove it from public view.

I live in an open carry state where it's not just an exemption while engaged in some outdoor activity, and NO ONE open carries in downtown Phoenix or Tucson without being approached by LE and questioned or taken in for questioning or flat out arrested [ based on the persons responses to those LE in public ] even though they can, strictly speaking, open carry legally.

MZA119 statement as to what he was going to do was something that is perfectly legal

That's your interpretation of the law, I'm sure it's quite possible responding LE and subsequently the courts may have another view based on the geographical location, the general public being put in fear based on your openly armed presence in an area that is not considered "reasonable" and interpret it quite differently.

What MZA119 and you don't seem to understand is that you will not be allowed to incite the general public in any way due to the exemption. That's no different than my own state which has lawful open carry without exemption.

I am constantly amazed by those who take a concealed only or open only position.

Here in Az. we have both, so you obviously are not talking about myself as I do both legally with reasonableness. I also understand that the state of Az. has granted me permission to open carry, but that open carry has to be reasonable and it does not give me carte blanche to open carry anywhere I so choose without being questioned and actually detained or potentially arrested based on my geographic location, my demeanor when interacting with the responding officer/s, whether I have the statute in my pocket, whether I have a video crew with me; or whether I think I'm within the letter of the law or not. And this is in an open carry state no less.

You may or may not be found to be acting within the law as it is interpreted by the courts based on several criteria. The letter of a law has never been the last word in the enforcement of a law or the interpretation of the intent of a law when it was enacted.

If you open carry in a congested public area under the presumed exemption of hunting, fishing or camping, put others in fear who then call LEO's to the scene, you have in essence incited the public or put another/others in fear who also has a right to be where they are in a public place and with the expectation that the general public safety will take preference over any exemption based on your engaging in some present activity.

Why do you feel the need to open carry in such an area? Are you not able to obtain a concealed carry license? If you have a ccw, why wouldn't you just conceal the gun and go about your activities without anyone being the wiser? Why would you purposely open carry knowing full well the probability of inciting the public or garnering a negative response from LEO's is inevitable at some point?

You admit you "have been pushing this issue" yourself. Hmm, the use of the word "pushing" would suggest to anyone with some common sense that you fully understand your actions may not be deemed accceptable by others based on the geographical locations you personally are going to interpret the exemption.

Why would you or anyone then be surprised when the LEO's or the courts push back. Every action has a reaction, and by using the term "pushing this issue", you have basically expressed and advanced a prior conclusion that your action will not be deemed reasonable by others, including other citizens, the LEO's who respond to the complaint of your physical presence and potentially the courts.

I know as an LEO, when I was pushed, I pushed back. When another person wasn't reasonable, neither was I. When I interacted with someone who was interpreting law themselves, I always gave them a ride, a chance to spend some money on lawyers, and was happy to let the courts interpret the law as they have the ultimate authority to do so based on the totality of circumstances on a case by case basis and at NO expense to myself. In fact, that action may actually lead to my making "court time" to the tune of 34.00 an hour for a minimum of four hours totaling 136.00.

In fact, as an officer, if I order you to remove the firearm from public view based on a complaint of others reasonable fears based on the geographical location and/or time of day, or to leave the area and you didn't comply, you'd also be charged with disobeying a lawful order as well. One of my explicit duties and responsibilities as an LEO is public safety. I could ask you to leave the area or remove the instrument causing others to be in fear simply because your actions are creating a potential for other citizens to react negatively to your presence and the potential for their taking matters into their own hands if I were to leave without removing the cause of their fears is a public safety concern. Believe me when I say that I would be able to articulate very well on the concern you've caused that others may react to your presence negatively if I didn't act on their behalf.

Now, you and others may certainly feel that's an illegal act on my part. As I've mentioned, you get to take a ride, spend some money and we'll let the courts decide if my articulated concerns for public safety were lawful or not in ordering you to vacate the area. Push on a smart cop and see how quickly he can cite and articulate why you'll leave post haste or take a ride :thumsup

Don't expect to push and not get pushed back. As Mac so eloquently put it:

There is such a thing as the Law of Unintented Consequences

 

[MZA119]

opcorn

 

[SEE IT LIKE A NATIVE]

Dont Poke The Bear !

I dont think it is smart to throw anything in the face of a LEO just to make your point of law ! This may have repercussions that are worse than the current situation ! Having said that one of the reasons I wanted to get a concealed weopon permit is that I frequently find myself under or around an urban bridge late at night attempting to engage the wiley Snook , on a couple of occasions I had to deal with undesirables who thought they had more need of my money than I did ! One of these guys ended up with a 1 1/2 lb mullet up aside his head and 4 ft of 80 lb leader with an 8/0 mustad hook stuck in his shoulder ! The next guy wont be that lucky !! Kevin

 

[brownie]

opcorn

Nothing further to contribute to this thread? :rolf

Here let me enlighten some more:

Ig⋅no⋅rant
  /ˈɪgnərənt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ig-ner-uhnt] Show IPA
Use ignorant in a Sentence
–adjective
1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.
3. uninformed; unaware.
4. due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.
Origin:
1325–75; ME ignora(u)nt < L ignōrant- (s. of ignōrāns), prp. of ignōrāre to ignore; see -ant

Related forms:
ig⋅no⋅rant⋅ly, adverb
ig⋅no⋅rant⋅ness, noun

Synonyms:
1. uninstructed, untutored, untaught. Ignorant, illiterate, unlettered, uneducated mean lacking in knowledge or in training. Ignorant may mean knowing little or nothing, or it may mean uninformed about a particular subject: An ignorant person can be dangerous. I confess I'm ignorant of mathematics. Illiterate originally meant lacking a knowledge of literature or similar learning, but is most often applied now to one unable to read or write: necessary training for illiterate soldiers. Unlettered emphasizes the idea of being without knowledge of literature: unlettered though highly trained in science. Uneducated refers especially to lack of schooling or to lack of access to a body of knowledge equivalent to that learned in schools: uneducated but highly intelligent. 2. unenlightened.

Antonyms:
1. literate. 2. learned.

Stu⋅pid
  /ˈstupɪd, ˈstyu‑/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [stoo-pid, styoo‑] Show IPA adjective, -er, -est, noun
Use stupid in a Sentence
–adjective
1. lacking ordinary quickness and keenness of mind; dull.
2. characterized by or proceeding from mental dullness; foolish; senseless: a stupid question.
3. tediously dull, esp. due to lack of meaning or sense; inane; pointless: a stupid party.
4. annoying or irritating; troublesome: Turn off that stupid radio.
5. in a state of stupor; stupefied: stupid from fatigue.
6. Slang. excellent; terrific.
–noun
7. Informal. a stupid person.

What would several pages of arrest record show one to have been from the meanings above? :drinks

 

[fridaddy]

First I would point out that in every case where I have raised the issue with attorneys for the appropriate agency and discussed the issue and pointed out the statute, my interpretation has been agreed with by those attorneys, so it is not just my interepretation.

I will agree to the statement, at least for the time being, that I am acting with the permission of the legislature rather than exercising a right. That is I believe it is a right, but it has not been held so by a court of appropriate jurisdiction.

The purpose of the statute is contained within the statute. Fla Stat. 790.25
(1) DECLARATION OF POLICY.--The Legislature finds as a matter of public policy and fact that it is necessary to promote firearms safety and to curb and prevent the use of firearms and other weapons in crime and by incompetent persons without prohibiting the lawful use in defense of life, home, and property, and the use by United States or state military organizations, and as otherwise now authorized by law, including the right to use and own firearms for target practice and marksmanship on target practice ranges or other lawful places, and lawful hunting and other lawful purposes.

There is no statement within the law that its use is limited to non urban areas. Furthermore, as to the discussion of upsetting the public or disturbing the peace, that tactic has been tried by statist police forces and DA's in several open carry states, and been struck down by those courts. Also, with all the times I have carried openly, I have only had one person ask me about my gun. he assumed I was a LEO. I told him no, explained the law, and nothing further was said.

I can assure you I will comply with even unlawful instruction of any LEO to disarm or conceal, to be quickly followed by a complaint to the appropriate agency as well as the State AG, and possibly a lawsuit. If I was looking to pick a fight or cause problems with an ignorant LEO I would just take action, I have not. I have purposely discussed the issue with the appropriate agency heads or representatives ahead of time and gotten their agreement on the law before taking action. If there is ever not agreement, I will consider my actions carefully at that point.

As to the reason for my actions and why I do not wish to conceal, is it is FL. It is hot, and I am trying to go with less clothes not more. in many cases if I want to carry, it is open carry, or wear extra clothes.

As to the place, there are wild areas even within the city limits of Jacksonville and the surrounding counties where I camp and fish. Cell phones don't always work, and there are wild critters both 2 and 4 legged. On 3 occasions I have carried at in town fishing ponds. In case some of you out of state'rs are not aware, it is only safe to assume that any larger body of water in FL, (decent sized pond or better) has a resident gator or 2.

 

[Rvrctyrngr]

Well said, fridaddy, and thanks for the info.

Not that you need to respond, but I'd be curious as to what 'in town fishing ponds' around here that you've OCd and not had an issue and who you notified prior to the event. Not sure I'd be willing to push that issue off of San Jose Blvd in Beauclerc!

For the record, I've OCd a gazillion times while camping and fishing, all without incident, but never 'in town'.

 

[fridaddy]

In town I have carried at Hannah Park, and the St Augustine Rd pond, and while getting out on the yak at julington creek. JSO is aware of the statute. Of course that does not mean all officers got the memo, so be careful.

 

[brownie]

Succinct elucidation of this subject fridaddy. I'm glad to here you've taken the necessary preemptive steps to inform the appropriate authorities prior to any action which might cause misinterpretations or confrontations within the LE community.

Stay sharp, good fishing

 

[Rvrctyrngr]

Well said, fridaddy, and thanks for the info.

Not that you need to respond, but I'd be curious as to what 'in town fishing ponds' around here that you've OCd and not had an issue and who you notified prior to the event. Not sure I'd be willing to push that issue off of San Jose Blvd in Beauclerc!

For the record, I've OCd a gazillion times while camping and fishing, all without incident, but never 'in town'.

Julington Creek, eh? Whoda thunk it? :rolf

Folks around there used to call SJCSO on our group all the time for training our dogs at the baseball fields off Race Track. Never had any issues at the soccer fields down the road (there were no "No Dogs" signs back then).

Thanks again for the info. :drinks

 

[Mac45]

Succinct elucidation of this subject fridaddy. I'm glad to here you've taken the necessary preemptive steps to inform the appropriate authorities prior to any action which might cause misinterpretations or confrontations within the LE community.

Stay sharp, good fishing

Brownie,

I'm not too worried about his contacts with law enforcement. The worst that is likely to happen is that he would be arrested and the case would proceed from there. If, however, enough people become enough of an annoyance open carrying for urban or suburban fishing expeditions; Chief of Police, Sheriff and law officer's organizations have much more influence with politicians than the average citizen. Push too hard and there may be no more open carry in the state.

Also, you have to be very careful when open carrying. There has been a sharp uptick in people carrying concealed in recent months. Many are largely untrained, inexperienced and slightly paranoid. Innocently looking at someone and dropping your hand to the butt of your pistol could elicit a response that you do not desire [several posters to this site have expressed the opinion that they are going to open fire as soon as they feel threatened]. That is one reason why plain clothes and off-duty LEO's are required to carry concealed. A bulletproof vest is much more uncomfortable than a baggy t-shirt.

 

[deaheat]

Why do you feel the need to open carry in such an area? Are you not able to obtain a concealed carry license? If you have a ccw, why wouldn't you just conceal the gun and go about your activities without anyone being the wiser? Why would you purposely open carry knowing full well the probability of inciting the public or garnering a negative response from LEO's is inevitable at some point?

I feel the need because when i'm relaxing i don't feel like having to conceal my weapon, its very uncomfortable .....

I have already gotten a bunch of negative responses with car carrying my pistol that was a gift at the age of 18 that is also legal.....

I also feel and have the right to open carry while fishing and make LEOS aware of the statue and make them aware that OC might be passing very soon.....

Why would i open carry while fishing because i know i can. I am perfectly within my legal rights to be doing what i want to do and i'm not going to fear police or criminals or gators while i'm trying to relax and find some fish!

 

[deaheat]

Brownie,

I'm not too worried about his contacts with law enforcement. The worst that is likely to happen is that he would be arrested and the case would proceed from there. If, however, enough people become enough of an annoyance open carrying for urban or suburban fishing expeditions; Chief of Police, Sheriff and law officer's organizations have much more influence with politicians than the average citizen. Push too hard and there may be no more open carry in the state.

Also, you have to be very careful when open carrying. There has been a sharp uptick in people carrying concealed in recent months. Many are largely untrained, inexperienced and slightly paranoid. Innocently looking at someone and dropping your hand to the butt of your pistol could elicit a response that you do not desire [several posters to this site have expressed the opinion that they are going to open fire as soon as they feel threatened]. That is one reason why plain clothes and off-duty LEO's are required to carry concealed. A bulletproof vest is much more uncomfortable than a baggy t-shirt.

Also cops in my town on duty, undercovers carry there weapons in plain sight without a badge or anything that says police....

Also cops in my town who are on duty or off duty carry there weapon in plain sight without a badge or anything that says police....

Calling there superiors does nothing at all but waste my time....

I also plan on making a South Florida open carry event at a local fishing spot or a pier! To make the public even more aware and maybe make some headlines!

 

[randian]

Here's what I don't understand: why hassle people who are openly carrying? Do criminals ever open carry? I can't say that I've heard of such a thing.

The interesting thing is I don't see the general public panicking when they see non-uniformed cops open carry. Without identifying markings, how can they tell they're looking at a LEO? They can't, they probably assume anybody open carrying is a cop.

 

[=CB=]

Why hassle? Because the very sight of what your doing just pisses them to no end. They're imprinted with "guns=bad" and "no guns at all" from the upbringing they received. Its a much deeper social trait than some realize, which closely parallels the overall sociopolitical thought processes.

The conservative who does not like guns, simply does not buy one.

The liberal who does not like guns, wants to make all guns, and anything having to do with them, illegal for everyone.

Not wanting to create major thread drift... just sayin' my mind.

 

[randian]

Why hassle? Because the very sight of what your doing just pisses them to no end. They're imprinted with "guns=bad" and "no guns at all" from the upbringing they received.

I'm rather more concerned about LEOs like brownie (the poster above), who make it quite clear that as far as they're concerned open carry is forbidden no matter what the statute says, and that any citizen foolish enough to think that cops are our servants, not our masters, will be swiftly disabused of that notion.

 

[=CB=]

Ah, I see your point. I was thinking more in terms of the blue haired pensioners, self appointed social elites, enlightened academics... that crowd, who "assume" that anyone not in uniform (or otherwise clearly a LEO) who has a gun, must be a criminal out for no-good, thus precipitating a call to the local gendarmes. Your take is probably the better one.

 

[OLDJEEP813]

I'm rather more concerned about LEOs like brownie (the poster above), who make it quite clear that as far as they're concerned open carry is forbidden no matter what the statute says, and that any citizen foolish enough to think that cops are our servants, not our masters, will be swiftly disabused of that notion.

What really bother me are people that expect LEO’s to be psychic. We as a society expect our LEO’s to stop crime and protect the public. We tell them that they can’t profile, we tell them they have to wait until a crime is being committed before they can do anything and then we complain when they don’t stop a crime from happening. Most LEO’s are great people trying to do an impossible job. Yes some are jerks but most are really trying to do their best and help. So if an officer see’s something that doesn’t seem right or normal he investigates as he should. That’s what we as a society want. If he sees a group of young people wondering around at 3am carrying baseball bats do you think he should just drive by or should he ask them what they are doing? If he see’s someone fishing at a pond or stream in a rural setting carrying a firearm this probably wouldn’t be a big deal but put the same person on a fishing pier in downtown St. Petersburg and this is going to raise some eyebrows as it should. Even though it’s legal to carry a firearm openly while you fish in Florida it’s not normal so unless the LEO knows you personally he’s going to ask questions and telling him to pound sand is not only rude but downright wrong.
Put yourself in his shoes. If you were charged with protecting the public and enforcing the laws how would you handle an unknown person with a gun fishing? It’s real easy to arm chair quarterback things like this and if open carry becomes legal we as well as the local LEO’s are going to have to come to some kind of an understanding. On their part they can’t automatically assume we are up to no good but unless they personally know you they are probably going to observe and possiblly ask questions which is after all their job. On our part we are going to have to show understanding of their position, since they don’t know each of us personally.
I for one am not real comfortable around people that I don’t know having weapons in my presents. What I mean by this is not that I’m afraid or wish to disarm everybody else I just chose to be extra cautious when I’m around people I don’t know that have weapons. If I don’t know you how can I trust you with my life? Think about it do you trust everybody you see? If so why are you carrying a firearm?

 

[brownie]

I'm rather more concerned about LEOs like brownie (the poster above), who make it quite clear that as far as they're concerned open carry is forbidden no matter what the statute says, and that any citizen foolish enough to think that cops are our servants, not our masters, will be swiftly disabused of that notion.

I've not made any statements in this thread or elsewhere on this forum in past that would suggest the bolded statement by you. In fact, I open carry out here in Az quite often. Perhaps you'd like to explain how you get the impression of the bolded for me.