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To some it is one or the other. To me, it is both skills that belong in your tool box.
 

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To some it is one or the other. To me, it is both skills that belong in your tool box.
Each instructor I've learned from, including you Bob, has given me tools to put in my toolbox, each with an appropriate time and situation for their use, including not being "gun-centric." I'd be a fool to think there is a "one size fits all" tool. Thank you Bob and brownie and all the others not on this forum for all you've taught me and will hopefully in the future! :2thumsup
 

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Each instructor I've learned from, including you Bob, has given me tools to put in my toolbox, each with an appropriate time and situation for their use, including not being "gun-centric." I'd be a fool to think there is a "one size fits all" tool. Thank you Bob and brownie and all the others not on this forum for all you've taught me and will hopefully in the future! :2thumsup
But sometimes you’d rather just use the .45ACP tool and getter done. :grin
 

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Discussion Starter #25
Another plug for the scoop draw for those who have never tried or have it in your " toolbox ".

"What if " you were in a situation similar to the man in church shooting video that the shooter was talking to before pulling shotgun out.

You are up close to someone with a long gun and your first option is to grab and raise his gun, because you've trained with the scoop draw you could still draw and take shot from the hip while still securing the long gun with other hand ?
 

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Besides being faster, learning (and PRACTICING) Brownie's "Scoop Draw" has another advantage over the traditional two-handed draw from concealment...

In the traditional two-handed draw, the non-dominant hand has to come across the body to lift the cover garment (glaringly obvious to an observer). There is no way to "hide" or conceal this movement, which TELEGRAPHS your intent to your attacker. There's a LOT of movement going on there, and there no way the bad guy will miss it.

With a one-handed draw from concealment, the defender can "blade" or turn his body slightly to conceal the movement to some degree. It's more stealthy, which can be an advantage.

My 2 cents. :)
 

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Another plug for the scoop draw for those who have never tried or have it in your " toolbox ".

"What if " you were in a situation similar to the man in church shooting video that the shooter was talking to before pulling shotgun out.

You are up close to someone with a long gun and your first option is to grab and raise his gun, because you've trained with the scoop draw you could still draw and take shot from the hip while still securing the long gun with other hand ?
That describes the "draw against the drop" skill to a T. There's 4 people in the country authorized to teach it from the originator, a former Dep Sheriff in LA County, who used it against a banger when the banger put a shotgun to his face/head. It was instinctive, but then he tweaked it further. Taught it to 3 of us, and authorized us to use it in our own courses.

Not something I've incorporated into the pistol courses, but something worth knowing. Requirements are:
1. A better than average draw stroke [ speed ] one handed
2. Both arms in sync, one deflecting the BG arm, one drawing simultaneously
3. Nads to "go for it"
4. Practice, practice, practice it till you can't get the sync wrong [ cause if you do, you're in deep doo

This clip demonstrates the principle of the draw against the drop, but Cruise is actually really sloppy compared to the correct draw against the drop skill.

 

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Besides being faster, learning (and PRACTICING) Brownie's "Scoop Draw" has another advantage over the traditional two-handed draw from concealment...

In the traditional two-handed draw, the non-dominant hand has to come across the body to lift the cover garment (glaringly obvious to an observer). There is no way to "hide" or conceal this movement, which TELEGRAPHS your intent to your attacker. There's a LOT of movement going on there, and there no way the bad guy will miss it.

With a one-handed draw from concealment, the defender can "blade" or turn his body slightly to conceal the movement to some degree. It's more stealthy, which can be an advantage.

My 2 cents. :)
:thumsup
 

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Another plug for the scoop draw for those who have never tried or have it in your " toolbox ".

"What if " you were in a situation similar to the man in church shooting video that the shooter was talking to before pulling shotgun out.

You are up close to someone with a long gun and your first option is to grab and raise his gun, because you've trained with the scoop draw you could still draw and take shot from the hip while still securing the long gun with other hand ?
within arms reach you can also go directly to the throat, disarm, utilize his and save your own ammo...might make for some better awesome footage also...did somebody say something about being guncentric?...
 

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Besides being faster, learning (and PRACTICING) Brownie's "Scoop Draw" has another advantage over the traditional two-handed draw from concealment...

In the traditional two-handed draw, the non-dominant hand has to come across the body to lift the cover garment (glaringly obvious to an observer). There is no way to "hide" or conceal this movement, which TELEGRAPHS your intent to your attacker. There's a LOT of movement going on there, and there no way the bad guy will miss it.

With a one-handed draw from concealment, the defender can "blade" or turn his body slightly to conceal the movement to some degree. It's more stealthy, which can be an advantage.

My 2 cents. :)
But worth much more than that! :thumsup

within arms reach you can also go directly to the throat, disarm, utilize his and save your own ammo...might make for some better awesome footage also...did somebody say something about being guncentric?...
:grin :2thumsup
 

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Discussion Starter #31
That describes the "draw against the drop" skill to a T. There's 4 people in the country authorized to teach it from the originator, a former Dep Sheriff in LA County, who used it against a banger when the banger put a shotgun to his face/head. It was instinctive, but then he tweaked it further. Taught it to 3 of us, and authorized us to use it in our own courses.

Not something I've incorporated into the pistol courses, but something worth knowing. Requirements are:
1. A better than average draw stroke [ speed ] one handed
2. Both arms in sync, one deflecting the BG arm, one drawing simultaneously
3. Nads to "go for it"
4. Practice, practice, practice it till you can't get the sync wrong [ cause if you do, you're in deep doo

This clip demonstrates the principle of the draw against the drop, but Cruise is actually really sloppy compared to the correct draw against the drop skill.

Interesting, he used the swinging of his body to have jacket clear gun. Not sure if that's really a feasible move.
 

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Discussion Starter #32
That describes the "draw against the drop" skill to a T. There's 4 people in the country authorized to teach it from the originator, a former Dep Sheriff in LA County, who used it against a banger when the banger put a shotgun to his face/head. It was instinctive, but then he tweaked it further. Taught it to 3 of us, and authorized us to use it in our own courses.

Not something I've incorporated into the pistol courses, but something worth knowing. Requirements are:
1. A better than average draw stroke [ speed ] one handed
2. Both arms in sync, one deflecting the BG arm, one drawing simultaneously
3. Nads to "go for it"
4. Practice, practice, practice it till you can't get the sync wrong [ cause if you do, you're in deep doo
We've practiced the skill before in class. Blue gun with partner and live fire with shooting dummy. Hip shooting one of my favs.
 

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Discussion Starter #33 (Edited)
within arms reach you can also go directly to the throat, disarm, utilize his and save your own ammo...might make for some better awesome footage also...did somebody say something about being guncentric?...
I was told by one instructor that if you were to disarm someone, not to use his gun against him but your own. Not sure if I agree. The thought was that you don't know the condition of his gun.
( I guess how many rounds, will gun jam because of no maintenance, etc. )

Thoughts ???

course if you take their gun, the immediate threat is over, unless they are dumb enough to try to take it back
 

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I need more practice I guess No matter what I seem to do the scoop has me shooting low. On a target once I'm out & on, shot 2 is much better.
I tend to wear longer shirts.
 

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Discussion Starter #36 (Edited)
For me the hardest part of learning the Scoop draw was making sure you get your fingers under the shirt in a hurry . It's here that you can fail. When I practice, once out of 50 or so times I will miss the shirt :aarg

I caught myself multitasking this morning while walking to breakfast. I guess I do this more than I was aware of. While walking, I was just practicing curling my fingers quickly under my shirt, muscle memory training, cause under stress we need this to be automatic. Once you catch the shirt, the rest is pretty easy. Hence you can sort of practice any time.
 

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Discussion Starter #37 (Edited)
I need more practice I guess No matter what I seem to do the scoop has me shooting low. On a target once I'm out & on, shot 2 is much better.
I tend to wear longer shirts.
Im no expert, but I used to draw quick and shoot quick and my draw was good but shots not so good. I had to learn to draw quickly and slow down on the shooting. I'm getting better, but it's a progression.
Better a slower well placed shot than a fast one that missed the mark
 

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I need more practice I guess No matter what I seem to do the scoop has me shooting low. On a target once I'm out & on, shot 2 is much better.
I tend to wear longer shirts.
The draw stroke is just the acquiring of the firearm in your hand and clearing the holster. Shooting once drawn doesn't depend on what form of draw stroke you use.

1. Drawing [ handhold ]
2. acquiring muzzle on threat
3. firing [ trigger control ]
 

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I was told by one instructor that if you were to disarm someone, not to use his gun against him but your own. Not sure if I agree. The thought was that you don't know the condition of his gun.
( I guess how many rounds, will gun jam because of no maintenance, etc. )

Thoughts ???
I would always use my own unless it was empty or disabled in some way and therefore useless. I know my firearm is loaded and ready to go. No idea about his. Nope.
 

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I need more practice I guess No matter what I seem to do the scoop has me shooting low. On a target once I'm out & on, shot 2 is much better.
I tend to wear longer shirts.
Why would you think drawing technique is causing you to shoot low? :dunno

Oh wait, I see Master Yoda (brownie) has addressed this already. . .

The draw stroke is just the acquiring of the firearm in your hand and clearing the holster. Shooting once drawn doesn't depend on what form of draw stroke you use.

1. Drawing [ handhold ]
2. acquiring muzzle on threat
3. firing [ trigger control ]
:2thumsup

Im no expert, but I used to draw quick and shoot quick and my draw was good but shots not so good. I had to learn to draw quickly and slow down on the shooting. I'm getting better, but it's a progression.
Better a slower well placed shot than a fast one that missed the mark
Slow is smooth and smooth is fast!
 
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