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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I guess you could say it is a scenario if you want.
Here it goes, If i am somewhere, say a convenience store, and a BG comes in and pulls a gun on the clerk, There is your "forceable felony and threat to life", green light, and i am down one of the isles and not being noticed or worried about, and assuming i can draw and get into a firing position, by law, do i have to warn the BG to drop his weapon, thereby giving him notice, and a chance to turn and fire on me, or can i shoot, possibly in the back or side, or head? I guess what i am asking is, in a situation like that when i am behind the BG, am i required by law to only shoot him in the front? or can i shoot him in the back, not letting him know that i am there or even going to shoot him? and do i have to shoot him in the body to try to stop him without possibly killing him before i can shoot him in the head to kill him?
I didn't get a CCL to play cops and robbers, but do i have to say "freeze, drop it", trying to get him to turn toward me before i take him out like the cops usually do, or can i just take him out without revealing my position or presence? He**, the cops have vests to protect them, I don't, so i'm not in a hurry to get in a gun fight, but a lot of hold ups in convenience stores go wrong....badly, and quickly.
i would rather just get him in my sights, and just start throwing lead without him even knowing i was there, Kind of one sided... dont you think?:rolf
 

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You are not required to issue notification of your intent to dispatch said Wealth Redistribution Specialist. That crap is for the movies.

When it's time to talk, talk. When it's time to shoot, shut up and shoot.
 

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I didn't get a CCL to play cops and robbers, but do i have to say "freeze, drop it", trying to get him to turn toward me before i take him out like the cops usually do, or can i just take him out without revealing my position or presence?
There is no legal requirement for a fair fight.
 

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If the BG already has a gun or knife in hand, he has indicated his intent to use deadly force. You are not required to issue any warning of your intention to use deadly force in response to his actions.

In a scenario like the one you described, the argument is often made that since the BG is unaware of your presence and is not directly threatening you, then a reasonable person would not think that you're in any immediate danger. That is utter nonsense. You are permitted by law to act in defense of another if they are in mortal danger and frankly, anytime an individual is threatening the use of unlawful deadly force in your presence, you're in danger as well.

So just sneak up behind him and put one behind his ear. :rifle
 

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If the BG already has a gun or knife in hand, he has indicated his intent to use deadly force. You are not required to issue any warning of your intention to use deadly force in response to his actions.

In a scenario like the one you described, the argument is often made that since the BG is unaware of your presence and is not directly threatening you, then a reasonable person would not think that you're in any immediate danger. That is utter nonsense. You are permitted by law to act in defense of another if they are in mortal danger and frankly, anytime an individual is threatening the use of unlawful deadly force in your presence, you're in danger as well.

So just sneak up behind him and put one behind his ear. :rifle

Can you hear me Now?:ak:laughing
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks, That is what i wanted to know. I am constantly playing scenarios through my mind when ever i go someplace.
Like in a restaurant, i NEVER sit with my back to the door, I want to see who comes and goes!!! In a convenience store, i check out the layout, where possible safe places are to shoot from and stuff. When i get gas, my back is to the car, not the pumps, kind of hard to get snuck up on through a car, LOL.
Like Saturday, I was in Badcock's looking at beds, and a person came in that was wearing a hoody sweater, with the hood pulled over their head, in an air conditioned store and it being 75 degrees plus outside. The hooded "prospective customer" wanted to look at electronics----at a furniture store!!!:rolf And yes, i was packing my G19.
So as the prospect looked at digital video camcorders, something i figured was small enough to grab and run, i worked my way behind them, pretending to look at a couch, but was between "prospect" and the door!!!the skinny sucker would have to run through me, them being 105 lbs soaking wet, and me, 225 lbs, former football player(high school - a llOOONNNGGG time ago), and my 18 y.o. daughter. Oh...Did i forget to mention daughter is a BLACK BELT?:rolf
I guess prospect didn't like something i the store, like the price, $400 for a camcorder, and turned around and left, empty handed. After which i went back to the counter and finished my business.
I guess I'm always on the lookout, but i had always wondering about my question, nice to know i don't have to become a target first.
 

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Thanks, That is what i wanted to know. I am constantly playing scenarios through my mind when ever i go someplace.
Like in a restaurant, i NEVER sit with my back to the door, I want to see who comes and goes!!! In a convenience store, i check out the layout, where possible safe places are to shoot from and stuff. When i get gas, my back is to the car, not the pumps, kind of hard to get snuck up on through a car, LOL.
Like Saturday, I was in Badcock's looking at beds, and a person came in that was wearing a hoody sweater, with the hood pulled over their head, in an air conditioned store and it being 75 degrees plus outside. The hooded "prospective customer" wanted to look at electronics----at a furniture store!!!:rolf And yes, i was packing my G19.
So as the prospect looked at digital video camcorders, something i figured was small enough to grab and run, i worked my way behind them, pretending to look at a couch, but was between "prospect" and the door!!!the skinny sucker would have to run through me, them being 105 lbs soaking wet, and me, 225 lbs, former football player(high school - a llOOONNNGGG time ago), and my 18 y.o. daughter. Oh...Did i forget to mention daughter is a BLACK BELT?:rolf
I guess prospect didn't like something i the store, like the price, $400 for a camcorder, and turned around and left, empty handed. After which i went back to the counter and finished my business.
I guess I'm always on the lookout, but i had always wondering about my question, nice to know i don't have to become a target first.
Please forgive me, but you sound like you WANT to get in a situation where you "get" to pull your gun. Why on Earth would you intentionally place yourself (and your daughter) into harms way?
 

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I was thinking the same thing as George when I read your post. I don't carry to thwart crime but to protect myself and the ones I love.

As a former Loss Prevention Manager for a major dept store chain. I can tell you that some shoplifters can react quite violently when caught in the act. Putting yourself in harms way to stop someone from stealing someone else's property makes no sense to me. If you don't have a dog in the fight and no one is danger of eminent physical harm I would stay out of it. I would of course notify the store employees of my suspicions and be willing to testify to my observations should the theft take place.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Actually, in that instance it would not have been OK to pull a gun, and i wasn't even thinking about pulling it. grabbing and running away with a camcorder is not a felony, or a life threatening situation, so the gun was just along for the ride, but if BG would have grabbed and ran, i would have tackled him and held him on the ground until the police showed up.
But, in response to your comment, no, i do not "want" to be able to pull my gun, in fact i hope i never have to pull it, but i WILL NOT be a sheep or a cowering coward. I don't know about everybody else, but i am getting tired of all the rampant crime, and the sheep that just stand there and let someone rob, shoot, knife, beat up, steal, and everything else. If people want to wipe out crime, then people will have to quit being bystanders and letting it happen.
 

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Thanks, That is what i wanted to know. I am constantly playing scenarios through my mind when ever i go someplace.
Like in a restaurant, i NEVER sit with my back to the door, I want to see who comes and goes!!! In a convenience store, i check out the layout, where possible safe places are to shoot from and stuff. When i get gas, my back is to the car, not the pumps, kind of hard to get snuck up on through a car, LOL.
Like Saturday, I was in Badcock's looking at beds, and a person came in that was wearing a hoody sweater, with the hood pulled over their head, in an air conditioned store and it being 75 degrees plus outside. The hooded "prospective customer" wanted to look at electronics----at a furniture store!!!:rolf And yes, i was packing my G19.
So as the prospect looked at digital video camcorders, something i figured was small enough to grab and run, i worked my way behind them, pretending to look at a couch, but was between "prospect" and the door!!!the skinny sucker would have to run through me, them being 105 lbs soaking wet, and me, 225 lbs, former football player(high school - a llOOONNNGGG time ago), and my 18 y.o. daughter. Oh...Did i forget to mention daughter is a BLACK BELT?:rolf
I guess prospect didn't like something i the store, like the price, $400 for a camcorder, and turned around and left, empty handed. After which i went back to the counter and finished my business.
I guess I'm always on the lookout, but i had always wondering about my question, nice to know i don't have to become a target first.
If I were in a situation, first I would make sure that I know what else is going on in the store. Give a look around and assess. Always keeping my guard up, but go about my business. A hooded sweatshirt does not automatically mean BG. I wouldn't want to put innocent people in harms way, if I can avoid it. I am 6'4 230 lbs, an Ex CO, and have been put in similar situations every day I went to work. Don't trust anyone, Stay alert, Dont be paranoid, but be ready if the SHTF.
 

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Actually, in that instance it would not have been OK to pull a gun, and i wasn't even thinking about pulling it. grabbing and running away with a camcorder is not a felony, or a life threatening situation, so the gun was just along for the ride, but if BG would have grabbed and ran, i would have tackled him and held him on the ground until the police showed up.
But, in response to your comment, no, i do not "want" to be able to pull my gun, in fact i hope i never have to pull it, but i WILL NOT be a sheep or a cowering coward. I don't know about everybody else, but i am getting tired of all the rampant crime, and the sheep that just stand there and let someone rob, shoot, knife, beat up, steal, and everything else. If people want to wipe out crime, then people will have to quit being bystanders and letting it happen.
Please accept my apologies then for assuming your actions were predicated on the fact you were armed.... That said, I still don't understand why you would take it upon yourself to be a one-man crime fighter to protect someone else's trivial property. Perhaps if someone was stealing MY stuff, I'd tackle and restrain him... or if he was taking from the weak or incapacitated MAYBE. But from the Mega-Lo Mart??? NEVER!

Perhaps you should seek a career change and go into loss prevention or law enforcement?
 

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Actually, in that instance it would not have been OK to pull a gun, and i wasn't even thinking about pulling it. grabbing and running away with a camcorder is not a felony, or a life threatening situation, so the gun was just along for the ride, but if BG would have grabbed and ran, i would have tackled him and held him on the ground until the police showed up.
But, in response to your comment, no, i do not "want" to be able to pull my gun, in fact i hope i never have to pull it, but i WILL NOT be a sheep or a cowering coward. I don't know about everybody else, but i am getting tired of all the rampant crime, and the sheep that just stand there and let someone rob, shoot, knife, beat up, steal, and everything else. If people want to wipe out crime, then people will have to quit being bystanders and letting it happen.
I'm not saying that what you did is morally superior, or that differing opinions are wrong, but just for the record, I would have done the same thing. A crook that will steal from a store, will steal from a neighbor, will steal from ME. The sooner he's caught, the better. Especially if its before he winds up in my living room at 2AM. Way to be vigilant.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Don't get me wrong, I was not looking for trouble, and I was hoping i was wrong about the prrospect, but to me I saw a potential problem and came up with a plan that I thought matched the current situation. I just assumed that before the person would grab and run, they would look and make sure the isle was clear so they could have a clean route to the exit. If this one looked, they saw me. Now, I am not an imposing guy, but compared to this little 110 pound soaking wet person, I was a wall that they would have to go through. Now if the prospect was a 250 lbs, 6'4" lumberjack, he would either have to run over me and risk getting tangled up with me on the floor, or risk getting in the furniture all tangled up. i was just hopeing that since the escape route was not clear that they would decide it was not worth it. I would like to assume that potential BG did that and decided it wasn't worth it, and just left.
BESIDES, I thought the whole point of getting a CCL was so you could be armed ALL the time. I was just letting you know that i did indeed have my CCL and was armed accordingly, not that i would draw for a petty theft, unless the BG pulled a knife or gun and threatened the girls behind the counter in order to get the camcorder.
And I was trying to let everyone know that being aware of your surroundings is not all that hard. And that if you see a potential problem, go ahead and work out a solution JUST IN CASE there is a problem.
Kind of like driving a car, you always try to have an out in every situation.
 

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no, i do not "want" to be able to pull my gun, in fact i hope i never have to pull it, but i WILL NOT be a sheep or a cowering coward. I don't know about everybody else, but i am getting tired of all the rampant crime, and the sheep that just stand there and let someone rob, shoot, knife, beat up, steal, and everything else. If people want to wipe out crime, then people will have to quit being bystanders and letting it happen.
All decent people are tired of crime. Personally, and I'm sure other's here feel similarly, I find crime morally offensive. Unfortunately I don't think we can or will "wipe out crime." We all have to find the balance of being good citizens yet temper our responses to be appropriate to the particular situation. Having a concealed weapons license and being armed ups the anti in most cases.

Should your frustrations about the rampant crime around you cause you to intercede in a situation, you had best be 100% correct in your actions, as you can and will be judged by others after the fact. Noble intent while laudable does not absolve your legal exposure both in criminal and civil court.

I also wish to express a thought I have about the term "sheep." This opinion might be in the minority, but I find the usage of this term to describe people who choose to not carry a weapon a bit inflammatory and insulting. Some people don't have the emotional or physical wherewithal to arm themselves. That's OK i believe. There are probably many who carry that should not, be it lack of emotional maturity, the ability to make clear and intelligent decisions under pressure, lack of training, etc.

Not every victim of a crime is a "sheep." By us making the decision to carry, we have not waved a magic wand and from this point forward we can never be victimized by a criminal. There are many situations that can and do occur that would render our ability to draw and safely fire impossible.

I do not wish to be referred to as a 'gun nut' because I choose to exercise my 2nd Amendment rights, and I do not wish to refer to others that do not as sheep. I do not carry to right society's wrongs, to protect the weak, or to teach some thug a lesson. I carry to be able to have the ability to protect myself from grave bodily harm or death. Possibly in some case, another person if the situation arose. I am not a sheepdog, just someone trying to survive in a dangerous world.
 

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Well said. Personally, I want to be prepared, but I'd rather leave the BG with a way out rather than block it. Until he pulls and points.
 

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Remember, if you are fighting fair, your tactics suck.

Get home alive.

My $.02.
 

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Well said. Personally, I want to be prepared, but I'd rather leave the BG with a way out rather than block it. Until he pulls and points.
Oh come on, wouldn't you want to at least trip him? :laughing
 

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Oh come on, wouldn't you want to at least trip him? :laughing
Well, probably so, but that wouldn't be my better judgment at work. :)
Seriously, a lot would depend on the BG's general appearance. If I was pretty sure that he wasn't carrying, that would clearly make a difference. The fact that I'm not a very big guy makes a difference too.
 

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This is an excellent forum for this type of discussion. An awesome exchange.

As to the first scenario. That clerk is someone's daughter/son, spouse, and friend. I would not want to reflect back on not acting under those circumstances. BG with a weapon drawn and threatening someone in the store, is also a threat to me. I agree with most, if I had the shot, I'd take it without further warning.
 
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