[Uechi]

I'm planning on buying a shotgun for home defense. I've looked at the semi auto and pump versions of Remingtom, Ithaca, Bennelli and Mossberg. Its come down to the Mossberg 590A1 or the 930 SPX. I'd like some thoughts from experienced tactical shot gun users on the positives and negatives of these two shotguns and feedback on any other brands. Any inputs will be greatly appreciated.

I would also like some suggestions for shotgun loads other than double 00 Buck Shot.

 

[deadeyedick]

I would also like some suggestions for shotgun loads other than double 00 Buck Shot.

There's always single 0 and triple 000 buck.

But seriously, buckshot is going to be the preferred defensive load in nearly every situation; slugs have their uses, but HD ain't one of them. And birdshot tends to produce shallow, non-lethal wounds.

If overpenetration of interior walls is a concern, your should be aware that buckshot pellets are no more likely to penetrate interior construction materials than a pistol bullet in any suitable defensive caliber.

Given the choice between a Mossberg 590 and a 930, I would opt for the 590; it has proven track record as reliable weapon and has lots of aftermarket goodies available for it.

 

[J T]

It's been argued that #1 buckshot is a better load than 00 buck for home defense. Others swear by #4 buck.

 

[Mac45]

Both are fine defensive shotguns. However, I prefer a pump, like the 590, over a semi-auto for home defense simply because there is less chance of a malfunction. If someone in the home has an infirmaty that makes operating a pump shotgun difficult, or impossible, then the 930 is a fine choice. If you decide on the 590, I would suggest you purchase the 9 shot model. For 2 extra inches of barrel length, you get three extra round in the weapon.

As to shot loads, it doesn't really matter to much at room distances, unless you miss your target entirely. Then, the larger the shot, the greater the penetration of interior walls. Any buckshot load will penetrate two layers of sheetrock and still have enough power to seriously injure a human being. Slugs are even worse. The field load vs buck shot debate rages on continually. Buckshot generally has greater stopping power, but it also has inceased recoil and penetration. Field loads less effective fight stoppers, but have lighter recoil and far less penetration. Personally, I load my home defense shotguns with 1 #6 field load, followed by 5 #1 buckshot loads. If I decide that I want to confront an intruder with an initial load of buckshot, I simply cycle the action twice to load and eject the field load.

 

[brownie]

I've always used #4 buck for home defense with 00 or 000 buck on the butt stock cuff.

Good thread Uechi as it got me thinking I need to get some SD shotgun time in out in the desert before it gets too hot out here. Most of the shotgun skills are used on the skeet/trap/sporting clays range.

Brownie

 

[Uechi]

I spent a lot of time shooting skeet with an Remington 1187 and a cheap 18 gauge. My Glock 23 and my 1911A1 are great for SD carry, but for home defense it's hard to beat a shotgun. I picked the Mossberg models because they are made to Mil Spec no plastic parts where it counts. I still haven't decided whether to go semi auto or pump. I wish I could shoot both then decide but that's not an option.

I asked tje question on the ammo because I wanted some opinions. Massad Ayoob says " In the Gravest Extreme " that he prefers #1 Buckshot. I certainly think buckshot is the way to go. I'll have to try out different sizes and brands.

 

[is there hope?]

i would have to agree with mac45 (and not because my name is mac)..if no issues involve ability or disability, the pump has been top shelf as far as being there when you need it..and we all will agree, nothing says HELLO THERE better than the barrel of a finely tuned 12 gauge...i have the "riot assault" remington (short barrel) pump....not sure of manf. year...and actually you guys bring up a great point of discussion..
ive always simply stayed with # 1 buckshot and never considered the diffrent round verses diffrent scenario before.....# 6 field load backed with buckshot...does give a option worth consideration...of course im sure some will argue the defensive negative and time it takes to reach point b...hmmmm

 

[Mac45]

Hope,

It probably doesn't matter if you have a heavy field load first or start off with buckshot. I think that it is a matter of preference and largely depends upon your defensive situation and possible penetration problems [thickness of walls, loved ones in other rooms, home v apartment, etc]. I use the field load to give myself an extra bit of flexibility. For outdoor defense, I would go straight to the buck shot loads, due to range considerations. I have trained with my shotguns and can cycle the action very quickly. Besides, a charge of #6, or larger, pellets in the face, or even the chest, is going to throw an attacker off his game, at the very least. Just a personal preference of mine. Not necessarily for everyone.

 

[twocan]

Pump Action

I prefer the pump vs the auto for simplicity and dependability also.

I have both 20 gauge (for indoor) and 12 gauge (for outdoor) 500 Mossbergs.

In the 12 gauge with full stock I use 2 #4 buck followed by 3 00 buck Tactical Loads.

In the 20 gauge with a pistol grip, I use #4 Hi Brass shot.

By the way, is the #4 Hi Brass Shot significantly better than standard shot?

 

[BobL]

I prefer the pump vs the auto for simplicity and dependability also.

I have both 20 gauge (for indoor) and 12 gauge (for outdoor) 500 Mossbergs.

In the 12 gauge with full stock I use 2 #4 buck followed by 3 00 buck Tactical Loads.

In the 20 gauge with a pistol grip, I use #4 Hi Brass shot.

By the way, is the #4 Hi Brass Shot significantly better than standard shot?

Hi, Twocan,

I can't answer that exactly. The way I understand this (and I'm always willing/hoping to be corrected and learn something new), there's two things that affect the answer: the impact energy (ballistics) and penetration of the pellets.

Hi Brass Shot is a Federal Product, so it's in that Federal Ballistics calculator. The calculator says that ballistically the Vital Shock Buckshot (#3 buck pellets) and the Hi Brass are almost identical: the impact energy is 1445 foot pounds for the Hi Brass and 1435 for the Vital Shock. That's less than 1% different, so I think of them as the same.

On the penetration question: I can't answer. I have not seen penetration studies on these shells.

Hope that's helpful. Or moderately interesting. Or, failing those two, at least it didn't put anyone to sleep.



BobL

 

[knite7]

Pump and #6 Field load.

I would definitely go with pump action shot gun. Pumps are not finicky about ammo; low brass, high brass, low recoil, squib load, all the same in a pump. And IF you ever have a failure to fire (FTE) or eject, just rack it again and you're good to go.

An auto is much more difficult to clear, especially under stress.

Number 6, or even 7 1/2 shot, at close range almost acts like a slug and at longer ranges is far less likely to penetrate than is buckshot.
Finally, thanks to the movies, there is the psychological value of hearing someone rack a shotgun, especially in the dark.

The biggest attraction of a Mossberg for me is that I'm left handed and the receiver mounted safety is perfect.

Knite7

 

[Xbonz]

If money is an issue look into the Mossberg Maverick 88..About $100-150 less. Parts that fit the 500's will fit the 88..Some differences most of which are not necessarily problematic..Unless you plan on firing rnd after rnd day in and day out you should experience no problems with the 88. Even then you probably will have no problems.
JMHO

:drinks

 

[SEE IT LIKE A NATIVE]

high brass

The shells I have always considered "High brass " are the shells where the brass part is about 5/8 to3/4 inch long , low brass shells are about 1/2inch ! High brass loads are typicaly 1 1/4 oz. shot charge or heavier , at high velocity 1300 -1500 fps . Low brass shells are 7/8 to 1 oz of shot at 1100 to 1200 fps and are typicaly used for skeet or dove and quail hunting ! all this is in reference to 12 ga 2 3/4 inch shells ! Kevin

 

[robalo23]

I would definitely go with pump action shot gun. Pumps are not finicky about ammo; low brass, high brass, low recoil, squib load, all the same in a pump. And IF you ever have a failure to fire (FTE) or eject, just rack it again and you're good to go.

An auto is much more difficult to clear, especially under stress.

Number 6, or even 7 1/2 shot, at close range almost acts like a slug and at longer ranges is far less likely to penetrate than is buckshot.
Finally, thanks to the movies, there is the psychological value of hearing someone rack a shotgun, especially in the dark.

The biggest attraction of a Mossberg for me is that I'm left handed and the receiver mounted safety is perfect.

Knite7

A couple of points to ponder:
1: A semi auto IS faster at 2nd shots than a pump

2: A good quality, well maintained semi auto is no more prone to malfunction than a pump.

3: Regardless of pump or semi, a test fire of the rounds you plan to keep in the gun is a must, this should eliminate any chance of failures to load or eject.

4: Not all home scenarios are going to be at extreme close range, bird shot will expand past lethal potential in less than 25ft. If you have to shoot an intruder in your home you sure dont want to leave them able to shoot back.

5: If you wait to chamber your gun until the bad guy can hear it it might well be the last sound YOU hear!

 

[Mac45]

A couple of points to ponder:
1: A semi auto IS faster at 2nd shots than a pump

2: A good quality, well maintained semi auto is no more prone to malfunction than a pump.

3: Regardless of pump or semi, a test fire of the rounds you plan to keep in the gun is a must, this should eliminate any chance of failures to load or eject.

4: Not all home scenarios are going to be at extreme close range, bird shot will expand past lethal potential in less than 25ft. If you have to shoot an intruder in your home you sure dont want to leave them able to shoot back.

5: If you wait to chamber your gun until the bad guy can hear it it might well be the last sound YOU hear!

Re: Points:

1: True. But it is slower to clear a malfunction or fail to fire in a semi than it is in a pump.

2: True. Answer to #1 still applies.

3: Partially true. It is always a sound practice to field test any self defense ammo. Unfortunately, you never know if a given round will go boom, until it does. If it doesn't, you have to cycle the action in a beau coup hurry.

4: True. However, unless you are J. Moneybags Gotrocks III, your rooms are probably going to be less than 25 feet in any direction; meaning your target will be within that range. Also, dutch loads [mixed field loads and buck shot] tend to minimize this concern, especially in a pump gun where you can cycle out an unwanted load very quickly. And, in a modern home with loved ones present, penetration of walls is a concern.

5: Possibly. But as I don't intend to go hunting for an intruder [he can either come to me or take his chances with the police], that is of little concern. Most people have enough self preservation instinct not to walk through a narrow doorway into a dark room after hearing a shotgun's action cycle. If he doesn't, then the problem will likely take care of itself.

I am not being argumentative here. But, I want to make sure that everyone has enough information to make an informed decision. Semi's are all right, for self defense, and they have real applications where a defender has physical problems that make it difficult or impossible for them to use a pump gun effectively. But, the manual of arms is more complicated when it comes to cycling the action by hand or dealing with a misfire or other malfunction. That is just the nature of the beast. The choice, of which action type you wish to use, is entirely up to you. Which ever one you choose is fine.:thumsup

 

[JFWayne]

Re: Points:

1: True. But it is slower to clear a malfunction or fail to fire in a semi than it is in a pump.

2: True. Answer to #1 still applies.

3: Partially true. It is always a sound practice to field test any self defense ammo. Unfortunately, you never know if a given round will go boom, until it does. If it doesn't, you have to cycle the action in a beau coup hurry.

4: True. However, unless you are J. Moneybags Gotrocks III, your rooms are probably going to be less than 25 feet in any direction; meaning your target will be within that range. Also, dutch loads [mixed field loads and buck shot] tend to minimize this concern, especially in a pump gun where you can cycle out an unwanted load very quickly. And, in a modern home with loved ones present, penetration of walls is a concern.

5: Possibly. But as I don't intend to go hunting for an intruder [he can either come to me or take his chances with the police], that is of little concern. Most people have enough self preservation instinct not to walk through a narrow doorway into a dark room after hearing a shotgun's action cycle. If he doesn't, then the problem will likely take care of itself.

I am not being argumentative here. But, I want to make sure that everyone has enough information to make an informed decision. Semi's are all right, for self defense, and they have real applications where a defender has physical problems that make it difficult or impossible for them to use a pump gun effectively. But, the manual of arms is more complicated when it comes to cycling the action by hand or dealing with a misfire or other malfunction. That is just the nature of the beast. The choice, of which action type you wish to use, is entirely up to you. Which ever one you choose is fine.:thumsup

I agree with all the above on 1 through 3.

4. I agree, but have a question. I do have one zone of the house where if I am at one extreme end and the BG is at the other extreme end (covering two rooms with a doorway directly in line between) there is about 50 feet of distance (two 25 ft rooms, basically). However, I still use #6 heavy game loads, because DIRECTLY in line behind where the BG would be in that example is my son's room, behind three more walls. Therefore, I won't use buckshot, or fire my .45 in that direction, either. I'll try not to shoot that direction at all, but rather try to maneuver to eliminate that concern. Question to all - Am I being over-cautious in that respect?

5. My Rem 870 has a round in the chamber - because I AM going hunting, since my son is at the other end of the house. I'm not waiting for the police, who would be on the way as my wife would have called already. If I draw fire, so be it.

 

[Mac45]

I agree with all the above on 1 through 3.

4. I agree, but have a question. I do have one zone of the house where if I am at one extreme end and the BG is at the other extreme end (covering two rooms with a doorway directly in line between) there is about 50 feet of distance (two 25 ft rooms, basically). However, I still use #6 heavy game loads, because DIRECTLY in line behind where the BG would be in that example is my son's room, behind three more walls. Therefore, I won't use buckshot, or fire my .45 in that direction, either. I'll try not to shoot that direction at all, but rather try to maneuver to eliminate that concern. Question to all - Am I being over-cautious in that respect?

5. My Rem 870 has a round in the chamber - because I AM going hunting, since my son is at the other end of the house. I'm not waiting for the police, who would be on the way as my wife would have called already. If I draw fire, so be it.

You are not being over-cautious. Look, you really don't want to shoot someone in your home if at all possible. First, you may have to clean up a mess. The blood is going to be pretty dry by the time the crime scene people clear out. Then there is the collateral damage. You didn't work that overtime to pay for the entertainment center that is now junk from errant rounds. Then there is the problem with innocent family members in the house. And finally, all of the legal mumbo jumbo that you have to go through if you shoot someone, even if it is in your house. It is much better, for all concerned, if the intruder simply leaves. That is one reason why I usually suggest that you make your intentions toward the intruder clear to him.

As to field loads for in-house defense, I see nothing wrong with them. In the case of a 50' semi-hallway, the the shot's effectiveness is reduced, but multiple charges down range with a high aim point [upper chest] are going to ruin someone's day. Just remember, building clearance is a skill that has to be learned, practiced and mastered. It is extremely difficult to do, efficiently, when you are alone. Especially with a long gun.

Here's a link to a video that may give you some idea on drywall penetration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc3Djfad6tcopcorn

I hope this helps.

 

[JFWayne]

You are not being over-cautious. Look, you really don't want to shoot someone in your home if at all possible. First, you may have to clean up a mess. The blood is going to be pretty dry by the time the crime scene people clear out. Then there is the collateral damage. You didn't work that overtime to pay for the entertainment center that is now junk from errant rounds. Then there is the problem with innocent family members in the house. And finally, all of the legal mumbo jumbo that you have to go through if you shoot someone, even if it is in your house. It is much better, for all concerned, if the intruder simply leaves. That is one reason why I usually suggest that you make your intentions toward the intruder clear to him.

As to field loads for in-house defense, I see nothing wrong with them. In the case of a 50' semi-hallway, the the shot's effectiveness is reduced, but multiple charges down range with a high aim point [upper chest] are going to ruin someone's day. Just remember, building clearance is a skill that has to be learned, practiced and mastered. It is extremely difficult to do, efficiently, when you are alone. Especially with a long gun.

Here's a link to a video that may give you some idea on drywall penetration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc3Djfad6tcopcorn

I hope this helps.

Yes, indeed - that video did help. It confirms that at least I am loaded as I intended to be (the shotgun, not me ) and that my thinking is not too far off on that point.

I understand your concern about trying to clear the house alone, but I did leave one detail out before. We have two large dogs, so at this point the BG(s) would have had to neutralize them for it to get this far. That is enough evil intent demonstrated that I would have no choice but to go after them, to try to keep them off my family.

Thank you for your help!

 

[Mac45]

Yes, indeed - that video did help. It confirms that at least I am loaded as I intended to be (the shotgun, not me ) and that my thinking is not too far off on that point.

I understand your concern about trying to clear the house alone, but I did leave one detail out before. We have two large dogs, so at this point the BG(s) would have had to neutralize them for it to get this far. That is enough evil intent demonstrated that I would have no choice but to go after them, to try to keep them off my family.

Thank you for your help!

We all have to do what we have to do. With a split floor plan, you may have to move through the house to secure your family. It won't make it any easier, however.

Good luck

 

[robalo23]

As to field loads for in-house defense, I see nothing wrong with them. In the case of a 50' semi-hallway, the the shot's effectiveness is reduced, but multiple charges down range with a high aim point [upper chest] are going to ruin someone's day. Just remember, building clearance is a skill that has to be learned, practiced and mastered. It is extremely difficult to do, efficiently, when you are alone. Especially with a long gun.

Here's a link to a video that may give you some idea on drywall penetration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc3Djfad6tcopcorn

I hope this helps.

Not trying to be argumentive Mac but here are a few ballistics sites that disagree with birdshot for home defense.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
http://www.shadonet.com/category/firearms/ballistics/
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm
http://www.learnaboutguns.com/2008/04/21/the-proper-ammunition-for-home-defense/

Theres a whole lot more out there if you do a search for "using birdshot for home defense". Knowing that the use of deadly force is a last resort, If it ever comes to that do you really want to take a chance on wounding an assailant and leaving them able to shoot back? Its a ballistic fact that birdshot does not penetrate enough to provide a fatal wound. Most tests ive read give birdshot about 6" in gel tests. Even the FBI requires there ammunition to pass 12". With the understanding that overpenetration is a concern I would have to place more faith in the ability to hit the bad guy with all 12 pellets and stop him instantly than risk leaving him able to return fire.