Mindsets, many need to work on this.

4903 Views 51 Replies 14 Participants Last post by henryher, May 21, 2009

MPDC66

Discussion Starter · Apr 30, 2009 (Edited)

I have found it very interesting watching the questions, opinions and responses here regarding proper or improper actions and use of weapons in various situations.

One theme comes through, again and again, that some look for a loophole or way to justify discharging their weapon even though they clearly have reservations as to the legality of doing it.

One thing pounded into Police Cadets and Probationary Officers is the difference between Protection of Life and Property and the Execution of suspected miscreants. The Policeman is trained to always look for the least destructive means to preserve the peace and protect the lives of EVERYONE INVOLVED IN AN INCIDENT. There is too much room for error and mindset can have you misread a situation based on your anxiousness to act heroically in some dreamed of scenario where you save the day.

Many probationary Officers are terminated for what we used to call a "Cowboy Complex". That is, creating or escalating dangerous situations into tragic or catastrophic incidents. Challenging as opposed to reasoning, escalating as opposed to diffusing a tense situation.

It is even more dangerous for a Civilian CCW License holder. Our mindsets should be purely defensive and with a view to save our lives and those of innocents. That does NOT include the inclination to take the life of BGs. IT IS NOT OUR JOB OR MANDATE and can destroy YOUR LIFE if you make a bad judgement because you either don't understand the legal limitations of your right to use deadly force OR have an erroneous mindset about how the world should work. Your outlook may be popular and good for letting of steam about the injustices we see in our judicial system BUT you need to be aware you are in danger of feeling the full weight of that system IF you get overzealous and take matters into your own hands when you could avoid it without endangering your life or the lives of innocent people.

Don't get me wrong, I wish the world was different and safer and harbor no illusions about the "poor misunderstood" criminals. I would also like the courts to save tax dollars by eliminating some of these hardened , brutal predators. I am just more realistic about the possible consequences and the limitations the system places on our rights and abilities to dispense justice, as we see it. It well may NOT be how a jury sees it!

Educate yourself about the REAL LEGAL case law pertaining to shootings. Work on your mindset and establish a defensive attitude rather than a super-hero mindset that can turn a bad situation into disaster.

This Attorney and his book is recommended here by many and I would encourage anyone with questions or doubts about what is right or legal to consult the website or the book.

REMEMBER, Legal and Right are NOT THE SAME THING. Justice is, indeed, blind and being blind, often makes big mistakes. Protect yourself by preparing not just tactically but also mentally.

http://www.floridafirearmslaw.com/m...gal-Frequently-Asked-Questions&Store_Code=FFL

I should also point out that the more incidents of unjustified shootings (or justified ones on the edge that result in lots of publicity or prosecution of the CCW holder) , with the great increase in licensees, gives the opponents of our Second Amendment Right to Carry more ammunition to try and take away our Constitutional birthrights.

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RadTek

· #17 · May 7, 2009

I'm not going to disagree with you there Brownie....

I've read over the laws, read some books, and watched these kind of discussions over and over again. And I'll never pretend to know all I can know about it. I'm making an effort to learn as much as I can, each and every day. I too found myself in a SD situation a few years ago, at that time I was unarmed, unprepared, and unknowlageable. I just got lucky that instinct kicked in and I made the right choices that, in all likely hood, saved myself and my wife's lives. But, it's an event that, literally, changed my life and haunts me to this day. It's soley why I began the quest to learn everything I can regarding the protection of my family and myself.

I agree that Florida law now requires no "last resort" criteria you've described. It appears that one is allowed to defend themselves simply on the basis of stopping a forcible felony. (in a nutshell anyway)

However, I believe completely that if you ever do have to fire your weapon in self defense, you have to assume that you are taking LETHAL force. Meaning, in my humble opinion anyway, that you have to presume the action you are taking will be taking a life! It's my feeling that you can't operate on the presumpsion that they will survive your actions. That's at least the mindset I've started to pick up on.

That being said, I dont WANT to ever take a life...even in self defense. So, that action is, again, in my humble opinion, an absolute last resort!

That's where I'm hoping to now begin to get into the kind of training that will, hopefully, give me the tools, knowlage, and experience that will allow me to make the right choices and take the appropirate actions based on the need of the moment, and hopefully, will allow me to take only the action required to protect my family and myself and nothing more, basically, being one step in front of the bad guy, no more, no less.

Just my 2 cents..not trying to argue with anyone. It's my feeling that carrying and potentially using lethal force for self defense is a very personal choice that each and everyone has to make and come to grips with in their own way. :thumsup

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RadTek

· #19 · May 7, 2009

Thank you Brownie.

It really boils down to this for me anyway....I always thought I took security seriously, until a SD scenario my wife and I encountered a few years ago in Denver.

I swore to myself I'd never feel that helpless again. Yea, I know, training, firearms, permits..etc.. doesn't guarantee anything...but, I'm not willing to leave it up to chance or dumb luck again.

My only problem is I'm just so darned obsessive when it comes to learning about something I know nothing about, I've taken darn near 3 years to get comfortable with a gun at the range and keeping one around the house, decide which one I want to carry, get my permit, and get some training...:rolf

It really is true what they say about old dogs and new tricks I guess..

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RadTek

· #28 · May 7, 2009

In my humble opinion, while I pretty much agree with what's been said in regard to "last resort", I also completely believe that the decison to carry LETHAL force and knowing there is the possibility of using it is one that folks have to make own their own and in their own way...and they have to come to grips with the potential outcome in their own way. Here's the way I see it..and I could easily be wrong. But, as I said before, to use your firearm in self defense is a VERY SERIOUS thing! Maybe, some people, in their effort to come to grips with that, need to run every scenario in their minds with that outcome. Not in any "cowboy" mentality, but, more of a preparing the mind accept that outcome to avoid possible deadly hesitation on their part should the need ever arise...am I making sense with that? Not sure I'm wording myself correctly here... I just don't think that most people WANT to take a life, so much as they need to condition their mind to accept the idea of them taking that step if needed....maybe I'm just rambleing, but, that's my take on it.

I've pretty much made this group my "home" in regards to learning about self defense issues. Because, this group, while it may not all agree completely on all levels, seems more like minded in the sense that we take our right to carry and the pros-cons that follow very seriously. I don't see a bunch of "yee-haws" here,..we all know the kind, some other forums are full of them, heck we've had one or two come through here....*cough-cough-smoking357-cough :laughing* This group seems to be more mature about firearms in general. :thumsup

We may not all come to the same conclusions and philosophys regarding the actions we may or may not take, but, in the end, we're all just trying to protect those we care about, learn what we can, and hopefully, keep our way of life intact..

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RadTek

· #34 · May 7, 2009

teter09 said:
... I wonder if the hard line that some of us take in a discussion is because of what happened to us in those stories. I wonder if our mindset changes based on what 'damage' occurred that ripped us from our comfortable little oblivious world.

Intresting way of putting it! And a good deal of truth to it I'd suspect.

I can only speak for myself, but, the sole reason I got into carrying was due to some thug who threatened me and my beautiful bride one night on our honeymoon. Thank God and dumb luck, I was able to twart his approach in spite of being unarmed and unprepared. But, even though he wasn't succesfull in his attempt to do whatever harm I am certian he had in mind for us, he still took something from me that night! He took away my confidence in my own ability to protect my family. He took my erroneous assumption that I was in charge of my world around me. He took my peace of mind and the guilty pleasure of being able to take my wife to a late movie on our honeymoon. Maybe I can't put it all in words...but, I think it's normal to feel a bit of anger and even bitterness toward the "trigger" that prompts someone like me, who's lived 40 years in a state of blissfull denial, into opening his eyes and taking in the larger picture.

Honestly, I should probably thank the scumbag. But, I can't deny a feeling of wanting to "get even".

So, perhaps you are right there.. maybe the "cowboy" mindset does come from a little bit of vengefull thinking.

I guess the trick here is to learn to harness those negative feelings and turn them into proper training, experience, and actions in the future.

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