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WOW....just saw that poll thingy at the top..... thank whoever did that....it is great....
That would be me as one of your friendly and hopefully helpful Moderators/Admin (see post #10). Glad you liked it since by your Thread Title, that's what I thought you were after! 馃
 

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I am thinking about a class in Okeechobee in March. After our last class, I got two choices from the members of the class. First is 2nd day of Threat Focus that includes Quick Kill and other skills not covered in the first day class. The second was, believe it or not, a force on force class. Give your opinion, I can do either one, just let me know. It will make a difference in range choices.
WOW....just saw that poll thingy at the top..... thank whoever did that....it is great....
Depending on timing I would prefer 2nd day Threat Focus but would be ok with FoF
 

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For some of us like me, who are not as educated on these matters, what are the main differences between TFP and FOF? And why would one want to take TFP first, before FOF? I dunno... it just seemed to me that FOF was better as (in my belief) you focused scenarios where you'd have to perfect your SA, as well as the physical technuiques (drawing, firing, etc.). If TFP is a necessary "pre-requisite," then yeah I'd want to take that.
 

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For some of us like me, who are not as educated on these matters, what are the main differences between TFP and FOF? And why would one want to take TFP first, before FOF? I dunno... it just seemed to me that FOF was better as (in my belief) you focused scenarios where you'd have to perfect your SA, as well as the physical technuiques (drawing, firing, etc.). If TFP is a necessary "pre-requisite," then yeah I'd want to take that.
Each course focuses on different skill sets. Although Force-on-Force (FoF) isn't exclusive to Threat Focused Pistol (TFP), if one hasn't developed those TFP skills, then one wouldn't really be able to utilize them very well during a FoF course, where one has to think tactically on their feet to try and stay alive during the FoF scenarios. 馃
 

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Each course focuses on different skill sets. Although Force-on-Force (FoF) isn't exclusive to Threat Focused Pistol (TFP), if one hasn't developed those TFP skills, then one wouldn't really be able to utilize them very well during a FoF course, where one has to think tactically on their feet to try and stay alive during the FoF scenarios. 馃
OK, and what are those TFP skills you learn in TFP that are pre-requisite for FOF? What do you learn in TFP that readies you for FOF?
 

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For some of us like me, who are not as educated on these matters, what are the main differences between TFP and FOF? And why would one want to take TFP first, before FOF? I dunno... it just seemed to me that FOF was better as (in my belief) you focused scenarios where you'd have to perfect your SA, as well as the physical technuiques (drawing, firing, etc.). If TFP is a necessary "pre-requisite," then yeah I'd want to take that.
Would you want to shoot a Fof course before you learned threat focused "staying alive skills" so you could utilize them in scenarios?

I can pretty much state with confidence that front sight press shooters [ accustomed to shooting two handed with gun up at line of sight ] are taken down by threat focused shooters in nearly every scenario [ because they can shoot one handed on the move and use several different threat focused skills moving in and out of those skills as dictated by time and distance on the fly ].

Front sight press shooters are one trick ponies in Fof, threat focused shooters have 5-6 skills they may utilize on demand as the situation dictates. That's the simple answer anyway.
 

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OK, and what are those TFP skills you learn in TFP that are pre-requisite for FOF? What do you learn in TFP that readies you for FOF?
They aren't a pre-requisite for Fof, but those skills will be of great benefit when you're fighting with a handgun against a live opponent.

What do you learn in TFP that readies you for FOF?

Staying alive on the street skills. That's learning to use your handgun one handed to make hits, and when fully trained up on those skills, using them while moving.
 

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They aren't a pre-requisite for Fof, but those skills will be of great benefit when you're fighting with a handgun against a live opponent.
Thanks brownie. I guess he didn't fully understand my point in the second sentence of post #24. :unsure:
 

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FfNJGTFO, here's a few pics of myself and students in a FoF I put on for a weekend in Tennessee around 07-08.

Plant People in nature Tree Natural landscape Grass

The above started at that distance, he drew first, I had to respond. I simultaneously used my left arm to foul his gun coming onto my body, drew and shot him in the neck. I shot him in the neck because I was "in the moment" and that's the shot I'd take in the same situation on some turd trying to shoot me.
Plant Jeans People in nature Tree Land lot

In this one, we started at 6 feet apart, he drew first and I had to respond. Look closely at the ground near my left foot, you'll see his firearm on the ground. He had me beat, I'm just drawing the gun. I'd lose but for the H2h skills which let me use my left hand once again [ while drawing ] to slap the gun out of his hand as it came up to point in on me. He threw his hands up in a WTF moment of frustration. I'll shoot with prejudice on the streets like I shot him and never give it a second thought.
Plant Tree People in nature Recreation Grass

In this one we started 5 yrds away, he draws first once again. He brought his gun up on my person and fired. My turning sideways afforded me his missing behind me [ barely ] while I put one into him before he could get a second shot off. You see he's standing still using 3/4 hip, I'm moving while shooting 3/4 hip but using my nose index not his stand and deliver. Now, I should mention that was an oh shiit moment at the time the picture was taken for me. But that movement made him miss, while I didn't while on the move.
Plant Tree Grassland Grass Recreation

In this one I'm demonstrating for the students how to run flat out and make hits on BG's. There's NO front sight press shooter that will ever make hits like this. Threat focused, the gun doesn't need to be up in my face, nor do I have to square to the threat, I can move and shoot.
Plant Tree Grass Grassland Recreation

Coming to a stop, out of threats that need shooting LOL

Hopefully these snap shots provide a few more answers to why TFP before FoF. You wouldn't be able to use these skills against one who can. Staying alive with a gun is a thinking mans game. The more skills you possess [ like H2h ] that can be incorporated at appropriate times on the fly [ thinking on the fly ] the better ones chances of surviving a meat grinder.

I've bled in Fof, that student I shot in the neck at point blank is a lesson he'll never forget. I explained why he lost to him, he understood immediately why he lost,

HE WAS GUNCENTRIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! let me draw and fire while he was trying to overcome my force of keeping that muzzle off my torso. He just HAD to use that gun, and it cost him big time. LOL
 

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FfNJGTFO, here's a few pics of myself and students in a FoF I put on for a weekend in Tennessee around 07-08.

View attachment 79274
The above started at that distance, he drew first, I had to respond. I simultaneously used my left arm to foul his gun coming onto my body, drew and shot him in the neck.
View attachment 79275
In this one, we started at 6 feet apart, he drew first and I had to respond. Look closely at the ground near my left foot, you'll see his firearm on the ground. He had me beat, I'm just drawing the gun. I'd lose but for the H2h skills which let me use my left hand once again [ while drawing ] to slap the gun out of his hand as it came up to point in on me. He threw his hands up in a WTF moment of frustration.
View attachment 79276
In this one we started 5 yrds away, he draws first once again. He brought his gun up on my person and fired. My turning sideways afforded me his missing behind me [ barely ] while I put one into him before he could get a second shot off. You see he's standing still using 3/4 hip, I'm moving while shooting 3/4 hip but using my nose index not his stand and deliver. Now, I should mention that was an oh shiit moment at the time the picture was taken for me. But that movement made him miss, while I didn't while on the move.
View attachment 79277
In this one I'm demonstrating for the students how to run flat out and make hits on BG's. There's NO front sight press shooter that will ever make hits like this. Threat focused, the gun doesn't need to be up in my face, nor do I have to square to the threat, I can move and shoot.
View attachment 79278
Coming to a stop, out of threats that need shooting LOL

Hopefully these snap shots provide a few more answers to why TFP before FoF. You wouldn't be able to use these skills against one who can. Staying alive with a gun is a thinking mans game. The more skills you possess [ like H2h ] that can be incorporated at appropriate times on the fly [ thinking on the fly ] the better ones chances of surviving a meat grinder.

I've bled in Fof, that student I shot in the neck at point blank is a lesson he'll never forget. I explained why he lost to him, he understood immediately why he lost,

HE WAS GUNCENTRIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! let me draw and fire while he was trying to overcome my force of keeping that muzzle off my torso. He just HAD to use that gun, and it cost him big time. LOL
Great post!
 

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Thanks brownie. I guess he didn't fully understand my point in the second sentence of post #24. :unsure:
No, I understood your "second sentence." What I was missing was specific details/examples of what those skills are. Brownie gave me a few of them above. Therefore, it's TFP for me until I am ready for FOF.
 

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FfNJGTFO, here's a few pics of myself and students in a FoF I put on for a weekend in Tennessee around 07-08.

View attachment 79274
The above started at that distance, he drew first, I had to respond. I simultaneously used my left arm to foul his gun coming onto my body, drew and shot him in the neck. I shot him in the neck because I was "in the moment" and that's the shot I'd take in the same situation on some turd trying to shoot me.
View attachment 79275
In this one, we started at 6 feet apart, he drew first and I had to respond. Look closely at the ground near my left foot, you'll see his firearm on the ground. He had me beat, I'm just drawing the gun. I'd lose but for the H2h skills which let me use my left hand once again [ while drawing ] to slap the gun out of his hand as it came up to point in on me. He threw his hands up in a WTF moment of frustration. I'll shoot with prejudice on the streets like I shot him and never give it a second thought.
View attachment 79276
In this one we started 5 yrds away, he draws first once again. He brought his gun up on my person and fired. My turning sideways afforded me his missing behind me [ barely ] while I put one into him before he could get a second shot off. You see he's standing still using 3/4 hip, I'm moving while shooting 3/4 hip but using my nose index not his stand and deliver. Now, I should mention that was an oh shiit moment at the time the picture was taken for me. But that movement made him miss, while I didn't while on the move.
View attachment 79277
In this one I'm demonstrating for the students how to run flat out and make hits on BG's. There's NO front sight press shooter that will ever make hits like this. Threat focused, the gun doesn't need to be up in my face, nor do I have to square to the threat, I can move and shoot.
View attachment 79278
Coming to a stop, out of threats that need shooting LOL

Hopefully these snap shots provide a few more answers to why TFP before FoF. You wouldn't be able to use these skills against one who can. Staying alive with a gun is a thinking mans game. The more skills you possess [ like H2h ] that can be incorporated at appropriate times on the fly [ thinking on the fly ] the better ones chances of surviving a meat grinder.

I've bled in Fof, that student I shot in the neck at point blank is a lesson he'll never forget. I explained why he lost to him, he understood immediately why he lost,

HE WAS GUNCENTRIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! let me draw and fire while he was trying to overcome my force of keeping that muzzle off my torso. He just HAD to use that gun, and it cost him big time. LOL
Gotcha! Thanks so much! I understand much better. Will look for a TFP course first.
 

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No, I understood your "second sentence." What I was missing was specific details/examples of what those skills are. Brownie gave me a few of them above. Therefore, it's TFP for me until I am ready for FOF.
Well actually the details on specific skills of TFP were not relevant to explaining that TFP should come BEFORE FoF in any course that relies on TFS skills, which are the courses brownie and/or EBL teach.
 

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Would you want to shoot a Fof course before you learned threat focused "staying alive skills" so you could utilize them in scenarios?

I can pretty much state with confidence that front sight press shooters [ accustomed to shooting two handed with gun up at line of sight ] are taken down by threat focused shooters in nearly every scenario [ because they can shoot one handed on the move and use several different threat focused skills moving in and out of those skills as dictated by time and distance on the fly ].

Front sight press shooters are one trick ponies in Fof, threat focused shooters have 5-6 skills they may utilize on demand as the situation dictates. That's the simple answer anyway.
Before your explanation above, I probably would have answered, "I don't know..." because I don't know what TFP is and the specific details of the involved skills. Now, I believe I have a much better idea of what TFP is. And the acronym is self-explanatory. You focus on the threat and what it's doing, and stopping the threat... not on your ability to draw, aim properly through the front sight and score a bull's eye. You might need to deploy a little H2H in the process (ie. blocking the BG from raising his firearm and getting "on target" with you). And, once you're able to do that, then you move on to FOF, where you have to take those skills, combined with the SA and use them in unknown, yet to happen, scenarios.

Yeah, I'll take TFP first and start from the beginning.

Thanks.
 

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Before your explanation above, I probably would have answered, "I don't know..." because I don't know what TFP is and the specific details of the involved skills. Now, I believe I have a much better idea of what TFP is. And the acronym is self-explanatory. You focus on the threat and what it's doing, and stopping the threat... not on your ability to draw, aim properly through the front sight and score a bull's eye. You might need to deploy a little H2H in the process (ie. blocking the BG from raising his firearm and getting "on target" with you). And, once you're able to do that, then you move on to FOF, where you have to take those skills, combined with the SA and use them in unknown, yet to happen, scenarios.

Yeah, I'll take TFP first and start from the beginning.

Thanks.
Welcome sir,
 

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As a result of our breakfast social this morning in Wesley Chapel, I have a challenge for you. If you're willing to come to Okeechobee once more to do a TFP class, I'll challenge myself to find a way down there and attend it. Just let me know when. Won't do FOF right away. Have to practice the TFP first.
That is a challenge at this time, unfortunately, I don't believe there'd be enough interest to fill a class of 20 which would give me the incentive to consider it.
 

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Well, why not have a poll and see what the interest is?

I know BH can modify this post or start another one to find out and add a poll? :unsure:
We had a hell of a time getting a full course the last time I was there. There's the hardcore students who've been through it many times that would attend, but there's little to no interest from "other members" apparently.

BH is more than welcome to start a poll/thread on the matter, of course.
 
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