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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Last week at the range with re-loads, my G17 was not ejecting spent rounds. I know that model of Glock is prone to weak load problems (my G26 feeds 100% with the same ammo).

Anyhow the problem is a LOT worse for my 100# girlfriend. Any recommendations for better grip or maybe exercises? She is new to shooting, and we have tried various stances with Weaver seeming to have the best results for her.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Ten lookers and no comments?
 

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My petite neice has the exact same problem shooting my G17...the fact of the matter is, at least some upper body strength, combined with proper techique, is necessary to effectively operate a semi-auto pistol.
 

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I see this occurring with female students when they are shooting one handed skills in my course quite often. It usually goes away with the two handed skills.

If the gun is FTE cases, limp wristing is probably the problem. Full size glocks can be problematic in this way for some people. I would have to see the two handed hold you are using to diagnose and correct the issue [ not that difficult to do by repositioning the grip and thumbs ] but I can't do it online unfortunately.

Are you using a thumbs forward grip or thumbs locked down. Thumbs forward [ pointing at the threat ] will be more problematic that thumbs locked down usually.

Brownie
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Cap'n..does she shoot the G26 well?? or is it just the G17 giving her problems and does the G17 FTE for you also?
She shoots the G26 with no issues about 95% of the rounds. The G17 rarely ejects for her AT ALL! For me the G26 is 100% and the G17 about 75%. Of course with new ammo both have no issue.

brownie said:
Are you using a thumbs forward grip or thumbs locked down. Thumbs forward [ pointing at the threat ] will be more problematic that thumbs locked down usually.

Brownie
We tried several different grips for her. The locked down position for her worries me for her because she has a tendency to move between shots and gets her top thumb DANGEROUSLY close to the slide path. The best for her was bracing her wrist with other hand.
 

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capngeo,

"The best for her was bracing her wrist with other hand."

I don't recommend she learn to shoot that way. It's something the old revolver shooters used and it's not the best way to avoid limp wristing the firearm nor is it conducive to rapid follow up shots in a defensive situation.

The locked down position for her worries me for her because she has a tendency to move between shots and gets her top thumb DANGEROUSLY close to the slide path

It's not going to hurt her if she touches the slide inadvertently and when the thumbs are locked down correctly, neither hand or digits are going to be close enough to the slide.

I've shot semi auto pistols thumbs locked down since 1971 and don't remember there ever being an instance of the hand/thumb/fingers coming into contact with the slide. 1 minute demonstrating the two handed hold I use would be all thats needed to get her to stop limp wristing the pistol. I do it all the time in classes for those having issues like this.

Brownie
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
If she would KEEP her damn thumb locked down, all would be good... She keeps moving it up and I stop her. This was her first experience shooting, and she has never lost hide from a slide!
 

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Did you make sure she was leaning forward a bit, with slightly more weight on her lead leg?

I see a lot of new shooters (of various body types) get a decent grip, and their arms are in pretty good position, but they're 'leaning back' in their stance. Leaning forward would allow more body mass in a steady position to both absorb recoil and give a more grounded stance.

-JT
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Did you make sure she was leaning forward a bit, with slightly more weight on her lead leg?

I see a lot of new shooters (of various body types) get a decent grip, and their arms are in pretty good position, but they're 'leaning back' in their stance. Leaning forward would allow more body mass in a steady position to both absorb recoil and give a more grounded stance.

-JT
Yeah she kept trying that too.... I corrected her when I saw it. She still flinches a lot... might be part of the problem too
 

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Did you make sure she was leaning forward a bit, with slightly more weight on her lead leg?

I see a lot of new shooters (of various body types) get a decent grip, and their arms are in pretty good position, but they're 'leaning back' in their stance. Leaning forward would allow more body mass in a steady position to both absorb recoil and give a more grounded stance.

-JT
I notice I tend to have that problem. It also hurts my lower back after enough rounds.

I'm working on it.

Maybe I'll post my latest range sheet and see if you experts have any recommendations.
 

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Even if she develops a grip that works for her at the range, it doesn't sound as if this is the weapon for her. You don't need unreliability when the chips are down.
 

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capngeo,

I'd remind her a few times and then let her experience the unpleasantness for herself. Nothing like first hand experience to give one perspective in these matters.

I had an old timer about 73 up shooting two weeks ago. He tried to put his support thumb over his shooting hand where the slide would bite it on recoil several times. I kept an eye out and made sure he didn't do that while training with me, but told him that he'd only do that once and he'd learn if he didn't remember to use the handhold I'd shown him.

He comes into the shop a week later with the off hand thumb bandaged up real good and showing me his "owie", stated, "you're right, I'll only do that once, and once is enough"

Lessons learned the hard way sometimes have a way of staying with us longer as I've found out over the years myself.

Brownie
 

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:rolf,

Their marketing that grip is over the top in places. Thumb over thumb is for beginners? I disagree with their mindset.:thumbsdwn

I've used both, and most shooters who have problems with controlling recoil with low split times [ even the highly trained 5th SF and Air Force PJ's guys I've trained ], find the thumbs down grip better at managing recoil once they try it.

Thumbs forward works well, it's not an either or, but something one has to develop. One thing I've always been amazed at where this grip is concerned is that it does not address the one handed shooting skills, it's used exclusively by the gamers two handed.

Now, 80% of the time you are going to find yourself shooting one handed on the street. Which grip does everyone think works best at grabbing and controlling the gun? Thumb not locked onto the grip or thumb locked down on the grip? We have an opposable thumb for a reason, use it.

If you have two different grips, one for two handed and one for one handed, that is going to be something most shooters will have a hard time with. Commonality in these matters is going to be the way to train, if you flag the thumbs with two hands and lock the thumb down one handed, it's two separate skills to learn physically and use under stress.

No thanks, thumbs locked down is the way I shoot one or two handed. I don't change someones grip in the classes, but if they are having trouble with recoil with the flagged thumbs, I ask them to try thumbs locked down and they usually will benefit from that handhold considerably.

As for the thumbs locked down being for beginners----------I beat a dozen or so master class shooters and a fre grand masters every Tuesday evening on steel matches using the thumbs locked down over their flagged thumbs. For beginners my arse----------

Brownie
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Good Stuff Guys!

I'm going to show her this thread when she comes over tonight.... especially the "owie" part Brownie! Good Stuff! I wish I had the cash to take her to one of your courses... maybe next time you're holding one in FL!

Thanks for the Links SR.... she's going to look at those too.

Can anyone recommend an instructor near Sarasota that might be able to help her with grip/stance and maybe weapon selection? As Steve said, I'm sure the Glocks' grips are too big for her.

Any suggestions on a weapon with a better fit? She has VERY small hands. All I have at the moment are my Glocks, a Ruger Target Mark II and a NAA .22WMR.
 

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Try reading and watching these two links, they might help..but like Brownie said its hard to correct something without being there. Its doesnt take long to fix once we can see what the shooter is doing.

http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_training/combatg_100306/ This article is on Brian Enos and Robbie Leatham and the thumbs forward grip.

Todd Jarrett does a pretty good job here.. http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_training/combatg_100306/
I started off with thumbs down and found I was shooting to the left. I tried it with thumbs forward and found it corrected somewhat.

When I first got my weapon, I tried to concentrate on all the techniques. Then I kind of slipped and concentrated on the aim and holding it steady instead of all the techniques together.

Wednesday I went back to the actual techniques, step by step. I concentrated on my trigger. I tried to use a little more finger and that fixed the shooting to the left the rest of the way.

I concentrated on my grip and found my strong hand thumb was a little high and my grip was a little low. I concentrated on those.

I also took the time to learn how far off from the point of aim the bullet hits. I had been aiming just a little below the x. Now I've dropped it maybe around 3 inches and I'm centering my hits on the x.

I need to work on closing the group up some now. At 7 yards probably 90% are within an 8 inch circle and 80% within 4 inches using slow fire.

I may try a couple hundred rounds with thumbs locked again but with more concentration on the trigger based upon Brownie's post.

It's a lot of work to get it right. I plan on nailing it down into muscle memory once I do.
 

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At 7 yards probably 90% are within an 8 inch circle and 80% within 4 inches using slow fire.

Doesn't sound like you are having too much of a problem from the above groups sir. If you shoot those groups at 2-3 rds a second, you are doing alright in my book till you get some more range time.

I started off with thumbs down and found I was shooting to the left.

Apply equal pressure with both hands, try to grip the gun tightly, and it will isolate the trigger finger for better trigger control. It sounds like you were pushing the gun when you fired with thumbs locked down. That grip doesn't cause this, there are other issues at work if it continues.

Brownie
 

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I learned one handed along time ago..back then we didnt train in two handed grip. It was thumb down..when I started on the two handed it was thumb over thumb for years. Then I switched to the thumbs forward, found out I liked it, more accurate and a much more stable grip for me filling in the gap as Jarrett said with the weak hand palm and locking the wrist down. Now even when I shoot one handed my thumb still rides the 1911 safety..I dont think the issue is with the whether you prefer one over the other as much as it is getting the index finger properly placed on the trigger and lining up the bore with the "V" of the hand and bone of the forearm, as high on the backstrap as possible. I get the 'teacup" and 'Wrist" hold regularly in class demonstrations by students along with the index finger of the weak hand on the front of the trigger guard. Which also was used years ago and still today see people using it.

I guess we could debate grip and stance techniques until the cows come home. What works for one person might not work for another. If you use a thumbs forward grip, dont do it with a revolver, you might lose your thumb. One thing about the locked thumbs is you would use it on a semi-auto and a revolver..thats muscle memory. We can also talk about the "push/pull" or the side to side..60% off hand 40% strong hand etc etc etc .Who would ever think a simple handgun grip could become so complicated?
 

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