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cmon brownie...only three?...the second to last two shots in the corner have baffled some...it was picking a spray paint can plastic top off a stir stick in the ground...the first shot spun it the second took it home...the reload seemed long but was behind the cover of a 55 gallon drum...
 

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Discussion Starter · #42 ·
13 seconds for 10 shots on the move, that's including the draw stroke. At NO time, were you at line of sight with that handgun. What to hell skill were you using anyway? :oops:
 

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13 seconds for 10 shots on the move, that's including the draw stroke. At NO time, were you at line of sight with that handgun. What to hell skill were you using anyway? :oops:
the draw started at 9 seconds...first ten shots delivered in 5 seconds including the draw...never locked my elbow but half hip to point shoulder to quick kill...second 10 rounds delivered on multiples in 4 seconds after the reload with a hesitation on the last shot...some old bastard sold me snake oil a while back...it doesnt always look pretty but it delivers...
 

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I’d rather die fighting than die complying. If two are busy doing what they came in to do and the third is ignoring me, I’ll take the first shots at the third and then send some towards the bad guys if no bystanders are near them.

If you are close to the door….take out the third guy and run????? Or just run for the door if close enough?

Most gun shops have armed employees. Hopefully if/when I start shooting the third guy they will join the fight.


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Discussion Starter · #46 ·
I’d rather die fighting than die complying. If two are busy doing what they came in to do and the third is ignoring me, I’ll take the first shots at the third and then send some towards the bad guys if no bystanders are near them.

If you are close to the door….take out the third guy and run????? Or just run for the door if close enough?

Most gun shops have armed employees. Hopefully if/when I start shooting the third guy they will join the fight.


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If your plan is to run for the door, you could fire in their general direction while extricating yourself. Not the wisest choice, but it might work out for you.

But if you decide to engage at all, better take all of them. I'm not at all enamored with leaving two people armed with semi auto rifles carrying 30 rds to then hunt me out the door in retaliation for shooting one of their buds.
 

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Multiple attackers like this is one reason I don’t favor single stack guns although I do occasionally carry one. I like lots of bullets. If your going to hide behind a wall of lead, you want that wall to be pretty substantial. 6-7 rounds just might not be enough to hide behind. YMMV.
 

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Discussion Starter · #48 · (Edited)
Multiple attackers like this is one reason I don’t favor single stack guns although I do occasionally carry one. I like lots of bullets. If your going to hide behind a wall of lead, you want that wall to be pretty substantial. 6-7 rounds just might not be enough to hide behind. YMMV.
One has to be lucky in the order to begin with, then be able to make the shots that need to be made, and the most important criteria, confidence to make them. Confidence in your ability to make hits on multiples quickly doesn't come from static line shooting on a range. Confidence comes from prior training on multiples, Fof with multiples in various scenarios, and the competition circuit.

When one has the confidence in their ability to make rapid shots on multiple threats, it changes the nature of the mindset in the defender to go offensive at the first opportunity. Most others will hesitate to act, for fear of missing shots and being taken out.

In one of the courses at Volusia, I had people try and thread the needle on threat barely visible between two innocents. They could take their time to make the shot [ which wouldn't be the case in a real scenario. Out of 20 people, 3-4 made the shot without hitting an innocent. Basics of handhold, trigger control and sight alignment just hadn't been mastered yet, after years of shooting on a static range.

Then asked if I could make the shot when everyone had tried, I drew and fired on the threat in real time and made the hit. Having been given all the time they needed to make the shot and seeing only 20% could make it with no time constraints told me in scenarios like this [ shooting in and around innocents ] most everyone is NOT going to attempt to make the shots necessary to affect a positive solution.

It was if I was seeing another course just covering basics and making precision shots all day on different threats/scenarios as viable. Never pursued that course outline, but I bet it would be an eye opener for many people.

In my humble opinion, there's few here who would use an offensive posture/tact to affect a resolution that leaves them alive. In my opinion, once again, most people deep down inside know they wouldn't fair well because they don't have the skills to thread needles or make precision shots on the fly. And we're not talking 20 yrds out, or ever 10 yrds out, but inside a gun store where the longest shot might be 21 feet.

If you hesitate to act on your own behalf being threatened with imminent grave bodily harm or death because you lack the confidence in your ability to make rapid hits on multiples inside 7 yrds, there's a way to resolve that hesitation,

Get the training.
 

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3 men rush you at the entrance armed with AR's/AK's intent on robbing the place. They push you back inside at gun point, then tell you to stand at a certain location and not move. They proceed to threaten the gun clerk/employees who one of the them then rounds them up into a corner of the shop where he'll watch them while the other two get to grabbing the good stuff.

What ya going to do, you're armed with your EDC.

Wait for an opening and try to take all 3?

Make no plan to affect their demise as waiting could lead to your own demise for doing nothing?

Wait until one of them actually is about to shoot you, then draw out of desperation/last ditch effort to save yourself?

The second their attention is not directed at you, draw and fire on all 3 of them?

What ya got up your sleeve for self rescue, you're armed up, amped up/life is in imminent danger of grave bodily harm or death.

Is this scenario survivable if they are intent on killing all witnesses?
So first thing. I do carry my edc locked and loaded when leaving the range. I've gotten into arguments about that with people that consider it 'a safe place', as if that exists or ever has.

Meek, mild and compliant. I may drop to my knees and beg for mercy.

I'll start shooting tangos in the back at the first opportunity.
 

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Not enough specific info for me to develop a specific plan.
Is where they want me to stand close to real cover?
Are they watching the others more than me?

I’d definitely be looking for an opportunity to open fire as I scramble for cover.
Much more than that’d be governed by the layout of the store, activities of the BGs (how I read the situation), and what opportunities are presented for me to take what actions.
I agree with how you're thinking.

[for discussion, not saying you are doing anything wrong]
Part of the problem with pre-planning movement, other than in the generic is like you said, lack of detail.

Movement draws attention. I'd rather start shooting and then shoot my way to cover or to a better shooting position. The quicker they are dead, the better.

One thing, the guys that work at the store are armed and will be opening fire.
 

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One has to be lucky in the order to begin with, then be able to make the shots that need to be made, and the most important criteria, confidence to make them. Confidence in your ability to make hits on multiples quickly doesn't come from static line shooting on a range. Confidence comes from prior training on multiples, Fof with multiples in various scenarios, and the competition circuit.

When one has the confidence in their ability to make rapid shots on multiple threats, it changes the nature of the mindset in the defender to go offensive at the first opportunity. Most others will hesitate to act, for fear of missing shots and being taken out.

In one of the courses at Volusia, I had people try and thread the needle on threat barely visible between two innocents. They could take their time to make the shot [ which wouldn't be the case in a real scenario. Out of 20 people, 3-4 made the shot without hitting an innocent. Basics of handhold, trigger control and sight alignment just hadn't been mastered yet, after years of shooting on a static range.

Then asked if I could make the shot when everyone had tried, I drew and fired on the threat in real time and made the hit. Having been given all the time they needed to make the shot and seeing only 20% could make it with no time constraints told me in scenarios like this [ shooting in and around innocents ] most everyone is NOT going to attempt to make the shots necessary to affect a positive solution.

It was if I was seeing another course just covering basics and making precision shots all day on different threats/scenarios as viable. Never pursued that course outline, but I bet it would be an eye opener for many people.

In my humble opinion, there's few here who would use an offensive posture/tact to affect a resolution that leaves them alive. In my opinion, once again, most people deep down inside know they wouldn't fair well because they don't have the skills to thread needles or make precision shots on the fly. And we're not talking 20 yrds out, or ever 10 yrds out, but inside a gun store where the longest shot might be 21 feet.

If you hesitate to act on your own behalf being threatened with imminent grave bodily harm or death because you lack the confidence in your ability to make rapid hits on multiples inside 7 yrds, there's a way to resolve that hesitation,

Get the training.
Yep.

People get all caught up in 'can I'\'could I'.

I recently complimented edgehill on his on the run reload and immediate re-engagement of the next available target when his gun jammed during your class.

It seems like magic, but isn't.
 

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Meek, mild and compliant. I may drop to my knees and beg for mercy.
Yep. Exercise your acting abilities. Cry. Beg. Whimper. Fall on your knees, and whine like the most pathetic coward the world has ever seen. Then, when they have written you off as a yellow-bellied wuss, who is less of a threat than a five-year-old girl, surprise the CRAP out of them! Come up shooting, or whatever you need to do to put them down hard and fast!
 
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