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If able to avoid being pushed inside, I'm trying to GTFOOD. If I'm forced back inside and then being ignored, depends on their locations relative to each other and to me, but Border House Rules come to mind as I shoot on the move while trying to get to an exit. This is also where I'd be happy to have 17+1 on board and two spare mags to think about a wall of bullets (I know spare mags likely couldn't be brought into play unless I have cover or perhaps only concealment to fight from). I know I am not just complying or going down without a fight. :unsure:
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
If able to avoid being pushed inside, I'm trying to GTFOOD. If I'm forced back inside and then being ignored, depends on their locations relative to each other and to me, but Border House Rules come to mind as I shoot on the move while trying to get to an exit. This is also where I'd be happy to have 17+1 on board and two spare mags to think about a wall of bullets (I know spare mags likely couldn't be brought into play unless I have cover or perhaps only concealment to fight from). I know I am not just complying or going down without a fight. :unsure:
That's a good plan. Another couple posters answers, I'll explain two options for me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
This would probably be my option if I’m being ignored. Or at least shoot while moving toward the door. Depending on their positioning, you know you’ll get one, maybe two but not three unless they are bunched up. So the two closet get the cider house rules and the furthest gets a wall of bullets as I move to the door.
I think you get 3 Andy, here's why. The first shot starts the party. The equation reduces to 2 to 1 immediately because the first guy is down when the other two hear that first shot. Party starts with just 2 if you're going to engage offensively. Make that first shot good, you've probably got the other two within a second [ and that's stretching it really ].

Back and forth as necessary from that point. I think that first guy gets taken out, the scenario gets much easier.
 

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I think you get 3 Andy, here's why. The first shot starts the party. The equation reduces to 2 to 1 immediately because the first guy is down when the other two hear that first shot. Party starts with just 2 if you're going to engage offensively. Make that first shot good, you've probably got the other two within a second [ and that's stretching it really ].

Back and forth as necessary from that point. I think that first guy gets taken out, the scenario gets much easier.
Are all of them still armed and ready or are two of them busy collecting stuff (and their hands occupied as such), with only one BG running "security" as it were? I'd want to take out the guy who is just simply armed and watching the others, figuring that it might take the "collectors" a few extra seconds to drop what they're doing and then draw to return fire. Hopefully, enough time for me to GTFO, or to get them 1st and then GTFO.
 

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Ask them if they need help carrying stuff...

I don't believe a single shot is going to be a game winner that takes anyone out of the fight...the human body is pretty resilient...my hope would be if I'm going to fight my way out that it's a small shop and my targets are close enough for debilitating hits in quick succession before they know what is happening...if they were dumb enough to push me back into the shop and leave me armed they can't be very swift...action as early as possible would hopefully be supported by staff that has not been disarmed yet...my action would turn the perps away from staff and allow staff to join the fight...3 or more defenders stand a better chance than me alone...

Then I wake up to the smell of bacon frying...life is good...
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
Are all of them still armed and ready or are two of them busy collecting stuff (and their hands occupied as such), with only one BG running "security" as it were? I'd want to take out the guy who is just simply armed and watching the others, figuring that it might take the "collectors" a few extra seconds to drop what they're doing and then draw to return fire. Hopefully, enough time for me to GTFO, or to get them 1st and then GTFO.
Ya, two of them are busy, one is watching the employees who were corralled into one location. It could be you got put close to them, or several feet away.

Take the one watching first, good. He's the one on alert and most apt to respond faster to shots fired.
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
Lets discuss liability if one goes offensive against them. Might one suffer liability later if one starts the party and an employee gets injured or killed by you or one of the BG's responding?

Will you consider it in the "moment" or will you be focused on eliminating the imminent threat of grave bodily harm or death?
 

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Another consideration... It's a gun shop. There is quite likely to be crossfire. That's another reason for me to "beat feet" rather than comply by going back inside the store.
 

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Do gun shops have a silent alarm, like banks?
I have one 2nd hand story of a bank teller in Sanford Fl accidently hitting the silent alarm and he said the police response time was unbelievably fast.
 
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Lets discuss liability if one goes offensive against them. Might one suffer liability later if one starts the party and an employee gets injured or killed by you or one of the BG's responding?

Will you consider it in the "moment" or will you be focused on eliminating the imminent threat of grave bodily harm or death?
IMO, they started the party, Period. I will worry about liability later.
 

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Lets discuss liability if one goes offensive against them. Might one suffer liability later if one starts the party and an employee gets injured or killed by you or one of the BG's responding?

Will you consider it in the "moment" or will you be focused on eliminating the imminent threat of grave bodily harm or death?
They are armed and at least tried to force me to remain inside while they attack the LGS. If they succeed in pushing me back inside, they are an imminent threat, but I'm still going to try to GTFOOD and get to an exit. When you posed this scenario, my immediate thoughts were 1) my LGS is locked and patrons are on camera, 2) have to be buzzed in by the owner, whom is well armed, too. So three ARMED guys pushing me back inside is quite unlikely, but if they succeeded, my LGS owner, who knows me and that I ALWAYS carry, even in his store, would very likely engage them as soon as he sees me feign a heart attack and drop to the floor like a sack of potatoes. 🤠
 

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The gun shops I go to all have armed employees.
I would comply until I seen a small opening and would probably draw and fire. ( Unless the thug had me covered at 3 feet)
I always have in my mind the old """"LEAVE NO WITNESSES""" saying that seems to be truer every day.
Ronnie

My big worry is going out to the parking lot after an hour or two of shooting and having a thug or two waylay me getting into my car.
If I do see anyone coming , I just wait until I see exactly which way they are moving before opening my car door.

I am what you call the coward that does not let anyone get to close to me. Even at Publix or Save A Lot ETC. I always have the shopping cart behind me in the checkout line to keep a distance.

I do not worry about Walmart because a lot of stupid females keep a handbag on top of their shopping cart like a criminal rob me decoy while walking or putting stuff into the car.

Ronnie
 
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They are armed and at least tried to force me to remain inside while they attack the LGS. If they succeed in pushing me back inside, they are an imminent threat, but I'm still going to try to GTFOOD and get to an exit. When you posed this scenario, my immediate thoughts were 1) my LGS is locked and patrons are on camera, 2) have to be buzzed in by the owner, whom is well armed, too. So three ARMED guys pushing me back inside is quite unlikely, but if they succeeded, my LGS owner, who knows me and that I ALWAYS carry, even in his store, would very likely engage them as soon as he sees me feign a heart attack and drop to the floor like a sack of potatoes. 🤠
Heart attack and dropping to the floor is "GREAT" and will probably work perfect.
Ronnie
 

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My big worry is going out to the parking lot after an hour or two of shooting and having a thug or two waylay me getting into my car.
If I do see anyone coming , I just wait until I see exactly which way they are moving before opening my car door.
My SA is high whenever I go in or out of the gun store / range. I'm scanning big time.
 

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Yup, after you've complied, they've ignored you for the most part.
After they’ve moved me back inside and left me. How close to the door am I?
Thinking along the lines of 7.62Kolectr. If they are really ignoring me, and I am close enough to the door, then I probably bolt. If they are not completely ignoring me, or I'm not close enough to the door, then I probably look for a moment when their attention is elsewhere, draw and drop the one closest to me, then start heading for the door while firing at the other two.

As for liability... Not even a consideration. The moment they pushed me back into the store at gunpoint, my life was in danger, and remains so until they are down or I am out of there. So I can easily articulate why I was in imminent danger of death or GBH.
 

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If it was like the old days and they just wanted $$$$$$ or Stuff and took it and vacated, It would be "FINE WITH ME"
Not my $$$$$ & Not my stuff.
But these crackhead pieces of garbage seem to want to kill anybody in the store just for the fun of it.
Things are only going to get much worse over time with the revolving door justice system and unworkable juvenile justice joke in America. No cash bonding out. ( What the hell?)
Ronnie
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 · (Edited)
Okay, so we've had some responses with some great thought processes on how to extricate or survive this type of meat grinder.

Here's my own thoughts, it involves mindset, prior training, prior experiences on the street.

Mindset, take the fight to them at the first opportunity, go offensive and put them on the defensive as soon as feasibly possible by taking incoming

Skills, they are there in my world through years of training, years of competition. A better than average draw stroke from concealed, and a minute of man mentality [ where I'm not trying to put bullets in any particular area of their bodies except COM ].

As Bnbullets mentioned, it may take more than one shot to take any of them out of the fight. That's a gimme for me, but I want all 3 of them damaged before they can throw lead in my direction. That can be accomplished without much ta do about it [ I know what I can do and at what distances I can accomplish same ] out to 7 yrds. And this is where the rubber meets the road, most people who carry a gun aren't as confident in making their hits count, let alone making hits on 3 BG's count before any of them can respond with their own outgoing.

Engage at first opportunity when none of the 3 pair of eyes are looking at you, make the hits, go back to those who need another or a few more and if one of them is about to get a muzzle on me [ we are keeping track of them in peripheral right? ]. Before engaging, I'll decide which one needs taking first based on circumstances, in this scenario, the one playing over watch on the employee/s [ he's going to be faster to respond to incoming over the other two who are distracted scooping up the firearms they can grab ].

So, the first guy gets hit, the remaining two are hit within 1 second and probably a little less than 1 second [ and that's slow where transitions are concerned ]. Now they are all damaged, and without hesitating one returns to those who may think they've still got some fight left in them. Might need to do a second round of boarding house rules on a few of them, but they've been damaged so there response will be less than otherwise.

In this drill which I was asked to perform by a gamer [ I guess some of them practice this scenario often enough ] years ago, if I'd instead of putting two on each, and placed one on each from the draw [ and I'll be at the 1-1.2/1.3 seconds from concealed ], I'd have #2 and 3 shot [ after that first shot connects with the one I decide needs to go first ], in .80 seconds. This at 4 yrds, but there's no difference between 4 as in this drill and 6 or 7 yrds for all intents and purposes.

I may or may not move on them, I may move on #2 and 3 but stand and deliver that first shot on perp 1 [ to be determined based on circumstances ]. My split times in this video are .17 seconds [ and can be faster ] and my transitions are .28 seconds. The threats are 6 feet apart COM to COM.

No time to dilly dally, just get to work solving the scenario presented. With splits and transitions, after the first shot on the first perp that starts the party, the other two are shot within .9 seconds. Rinse and repeat as necessary. BTW, I was using the Quick Kill pistol skill in this drill.

Determination to control my own future, not allowing another to dictate it. Focused on the task at hand. I may die there or they may, but they aren't going to dictate my future. I am.

 

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I don't have the skills that you do, Brownie, so I'm only going to go on the offensive if I really MUST, or if I feel like I have a moment of distinct advantage.

Regarding who to take out first, I would say that if there is one of them who is very obviously "in charge," he's going to be on the top of my list, but if there is some tactical advantage in taking out others first, so be it.
 
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