[brownie]

3 men rush you at the entrance armed with AR's/AK's intent on robbing the place. They push you back inside at gun point, then tell you to stand at a certain location and not move. They proceed to threaten the gun clerk/employees who one of the them then rounds them up into a corner of the shop where he'll watch them while the other two get to grabbing the good stuff.

What ya going to do, you're armed with your EDC.

Wait for an opening and try to take all 3?

Make no plan to affect their demise as waiting could lead to your own demise for doing nothing?

Wait until one of them actually is about to shoot you, then draw out of desperation/last ditch effort to save yourself?

The second their attention is not directed at you, draw and fire on all 3 of them?

What ya got up your sleeve for self rescue, you're armed up, amped up/life is in imminent danger of grave bodily harm or death.

Is this scenario survivable if they are intent on killing all witnesses?

 

[brownie]

I don't let them push me in. I push back and run like hell. They're not going to come after me, because the prize is inside.

I couldn't think of a Hollywood-inspired answer to this one!

The hollywood inspired replies really don't answer the questions though. Lest people think they can duplicate what trick photography can do on the screen, of course

 

[brownie]

I don't let them push me in. I push back and run like hell. They're not going to come after me, because the prize is inside.

I couldn't think of a Hollywood-inspired answer to this one!

You could get shot in the back, it's definitely an option to run. Might die tired, might not.

 

[brownie]

I guess you couldn't see my tongue planted firmly in cheek.

I could see it, but I'm not sure people reading the thread will take it seriously after the first comical replies

 

[brownie]

Not enough specific info for me to develop a specific plan.
Is where they want me to stand close to real cover?
Are they watching the others more than me?

I’d definitely be looking for an opportunity to open fire as I scramble for cover.
Much more than that’d be governed by the layout of the store, activities of the BGs (how I read the situation), and what opportunities are presented for me to take what actions.

No cover except glass show cases.
Yup, after you've complied, they've ignored you for the most part.

We'll wait for some more replies before I give my own solution and why.

 

[brownie]

Then as the opportunity presents itself; I’ll be shooting them as I run towards them.

Whoa!!!!!!!!!! behind a wall of bullets? Yippi Ki Ya, MF's

So you believe the best defense is a good offense. I like the way you think, and the confidence to pull it off.

 

[brownie]

If able to avoid being pushed inside, I'm trying to GTFOOD. If I'm forced back inside and then being ignored, depends on their locations relative to each other and to me, but Border House Rules come to mind as I shoot on the move while trying to get to an exit. This is also where I'd be happy to have 17+1 on board and two spare mags to think about a wall of bullets (I know spare mags likely couldn't be brought into play unless I have cover or perhaps only concealment to fight from). I know I am not just complying or going down without a fight.

That's a good plan. Another couple posters answers, I'll explain two options for me.

 

[brownie]

This would probably be my option if I’m being ignored. Or at least shoot while moving toward the door. Depending on their positioning, you know you’ll get one, maybe two but not three unless they are bunched up. So the two closet get the cider house rules and the furthest gets a wall of bullets as I move to the door.

I think you get 3 Andy, here's why. The first shot starts the party. The equation reduces to 2 to 1 immediately because the first guy is down when the other two hear that first shot. Party starts with just 2 if you're going to engage offensively. Make that first shot good, you've probably got the other two within a second [ and that's stretching it really ].

Back and forth as necessary from that point. I think that first guy gets taken out, the scenario gets much easier.

 

[brownie]

Are all of them still armed and ready or are two of them busy collecting stuff (and their hands occupied as such), with only one BG running "security" as it were? I'd want to take out the guy who is just simply armed and watching the others, figuring that it might take the "collectors" a few extra seconds to drop what they're doing and then draw to return fire. Hopefully, enough time for me to GTFO, or to get them 1st and then GTFO.

Ya, two of them are busy, one is watching the employees who were corralled into one location. It could be you got put close to them, or several feet away.

Take the one watching first, good. He's the one on alert and most apt to respond faster to shots fired.

 

[brownie]

Lets discuss liability if one goes offensive against them. Might one suffer liability later if one starts the party and an employee gets injured or killed by you or one of the BG's responding?

Will you consider it in the "moment" or will you be focused on eliminating the imminent threat of grave bodily harm or death?

 

[brownie]

Okay, so we've had some responses with some great thought processes on how to extricate or survive this type of meat grinder.

Here's my own thoughts, it involves mindset, prior training, prior experiences on the street.

Mindset, take the fight to them at the first opportunity, go offensive and put them on the defensive as soon as feasibly possible by taking incoming

Skills, they are there in my world through years of training, years of competition. A better than average draw stroke from concealed, and a minute of man mentality [ where I'm not trying to put bullets in any particular area of their bodies except COM ].

As Bnbullets mentioned, it may take more than one shot to take any of them out of the fight. That's a gimme for me, but I want all 3 of them damaged before they can throw lead in my direction. That can be accomplished without much ta do about it [ I know what I can do and at what distances I can accomplish same ] out to 7 yrds. And this is where the rubber meets the road, most people who carry a gun aren't as confident in making their hits count, let alone making hits on 3 BG's count before any of them can respond with their own outgoing.

Engage at first opportunity when none of the 3 pair of eyes are looking at you, make the hits, go back to those who need another or a few more and if one of them is about to get a muzzle on me [ we are keeping track of them in peripheral right? ]. Before engaging, I'll decide which one needs taking first based on circumstances, in this scenario, the one playing over watch on the employee/s [ he's going to be faster to respond to incoming over the other two who are distracted scooping up the firearms they can grab ].

So, the first guy gets hit, the remaining two are hit within 1 second and probably a little less than 1 second [ and that's slow where transitions are concerned ]. Now they are all damaged, and without hesitating one returns to those who may think they've still got some fight left in them. Might need to do a second round of boarding house rules on a few of them, but they've been damaged so there response will be less than otherwise.

In this drill which I was asked to perform by a gamer [ I guess some of them practice this scenario often enough ] years ago, if I'd instead of putting two on each, and placed one on each from the draw [ and I'll be at the 1-1.2/1.3 seconds from concealed ], I'd have #2 and 3 shot [ after that first shot connects with the one I decide needs to go first ], in .80 seconds. This at 4 yrds, but there's no difference between 4 as in this drill and 6 or 7 yrds for all intents and purposes.

I may or may not move on them, I may move on #2 and 3 but stand and deliver that first shot on perp 1 [ to be determined based on circumstances ]. My split times in this video are .17 seconds [ and can be faster ] and my transitions are .28 seconds. The threats are 6 feet apart COM to COM.

No time to dilly dally, just get to work solving the scenario presented. With splits and transitions, after the first shot on the first perp that starts the party, the other two are shot within .9 seconds. Rinse and repeat as necessary. BTW, I was using the Quick Kill pistol skill in this drill.

Determination to control my own future, not allowing another to dictate it. Focused on the task at hand. I may die there or they may, but they aren't going to dictate my future. I am.

 

[brownie]

13 seconds for 10 shots on the move, that's including the draw stroke. At NO time, were you at line of sight with that handgun. What to hell skill were you using anyway?

 

[brownie]

I’d rather die fighting than die complying. If two are busy doing what they came in to do and the third is ignoring me, I’ll take the first shots at the third and then send some towards the bad guys if no bystanders are near them.

If you are close to the door….take out the third guy and run????? Or just run for the door if close enough?

Most gun shops have armed employees. Hopefully if/when I start shooting the third guy they will join the fight.


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If your plan is to run for the door, you could fire in their general direction while extricating yourself. Not the wisest choice, but it might work out for you.

But if you decide to engage at all, better take all of them. I'm not at all enamored with leaving two people armed with semi auto rifles carrying 30 rds to then hunt me out the door in retaliation for shooting one of their buds.

 

[brownie]

Multiple attackers like this is one reason I don’t favor single stack guns although I do occasionally carry one. I like lots of bullets. If your going to hide behind a wall of lead, you want that wall to be pretty substantial. 6-7 rounds just might not be enough to hide behind. YMMV.

One has to be lucky in the order to begin with, then be able to make the shots that need to be made, and the most important criteria, confidence to make them. Confidence in your ability to make hits on multiples quickly doesn't come from static line shooting on a range. Confidence comes from prior training on multiples, Fof with multiples in various scenarios, and the competition circuit.

When one has the confidence in their ability to make rapid shots on multiple threats, it changes the nature of the mindset in the defender to go offensive at the first opportunity. Most others will hesitate to act, for fear of missing shots and being taken out.

In one of the courses at Volusia, I had people try and thread the needle on threat barely visible between two innocents. They could take their time to make the shot [ which wouldn't be the case in a real scenario. Out of 20 people, 3-4 made the shot without hitting an innocent. Basics of handhold, trigger control and sight alignment just hadn't been mastered yet, after years of shooting on a static range.

Then asked if I could make the shot when everyone had tried, I drew and fired on the threat in real time and made the hit. Having been given all the time they needed to make the shot and seeing only 20% could make it with no time constraints told me in scenarios like this [ shooting in and around innocents ] most everyone is NOT going to attempt to make the shots necessary to affect a positive solution.

It was if I was seeing another course just covering basics and making precision shots all day on different threats/scenarios as viable. Never pursued that course outline, but I bet it would be an eye opener for many people.

In my humble opinion, there's few here who would use an offensive posture/tact to affect a resolution that leaves them alive. In my opinion, once again, most people deep down inside know they wouldn't fair well because they don't have the skills to thread needles or make precision shots on the fly. And we're not talking 20 yrds out, or ever 10 yrds out, but inside a gun store where the longest shot might be 21 feet.

If you hesitate to act on your own behalf being threatened with imminent grave bodily harm or death because you lack the confidence in your ability to make rapid hits on multiples inside 7 yrds, there's a way to resolve that hesitation,

Get the training.