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Not to put words in anyone鈥檚 mouth; but I thought that he was just referring to someone having learned the basics of handgun shooting, and basic firearm safety.

In every one of Brownie鈥檚 TFP classes that I鈥檝e attended except my first; the students were required to shoot five rounds at a bullseye target at five yards; no time constraints or other shooter conditions. That was so the instructor could get an idea of what level of shooters the students were. As you well know; Brownie and EBL are both able to discern what shooting shortcomings each student brings to the TF skills; and they鈥檙e able to provide the direction needed to get the student鈥檚 performance corrected.

If a student hasn鈥檛 even made an effort to learn the basics of handgun shooting; there鈥檚 not much of any foundation for the instructor to build on.
I'm not sure how we went from FSP proficiency being or not being a prerequisite to learning threat-focused to completely untrained people showing up for a class. Such things are generally described in course offerings. There seems to always be at least a bit of ineptitude showing up in group classes, regardless of what is presented in the description.
 

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Discussion Starter · #43 ·
I'm not sure how we went from FSP proficiency being or not being a prerequisite to learning threat-focused to completely untrained people showing up for a class. Such things are generally described in course offerings. There seems to always be at least a bit of ineptitude showing up in group classes, regardless of what is presented in the description.
We've seen that from time to time over the years Mike. Part and parcel, we'd bring them along as best we could. Some would end up better TF shooters than when they tried to use their sights [ FSP ] at the end of the day. Perfect example was that thread the needle drill mentioned. Many of those who tried to thread the shot [ and hit one of the innocents ] are exemplary TF shooters [ having attended one or more of them with myself so I know their prowess with those skills ].
 

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As we learned in one of the COF's when a female showed up with nary any pistol handling skills, let alone the basics. She struggled all weekend. IIRC, I had to put shooter4 on her full time all weekend, and he gave her pointers throughout the two days, many the same as she at that point was quite intimidated by those around her kicking butt and taking names.
I've attended maybe one class ever where at least one person had no business training at that particular level, or at least needed some one-on-one like you mentioned. That class was an armed congregant at house of worship program put on by a lead instructor at one of the gun schools and attended by the armed staff of his congregation. They had been training regularly together for years. Not a slouch in the bunch.

On the other hand, I attended a forty-eight hour course required by the State of Ohio for armed school staff. The requirements for that class were a concealed carry license. I don't sleep better knowing that a few of those school staffers are carrying in crowded schools/classrooms.
 

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We've seen that from time to time over the years Mike. Part and parcel, we'd bring them along as best we could. Some would end up better TF shooters than when they tried to use their sights [ FSP ] at the end of the day. Perfect example was that thread the needle drill mentioned. Many of those who tried to thread the shot [ and hit one of the innocents ] are exemplary TF shooters [ having attended one or more of them with myself so I know their prowess with those skills ].
I've attended threat-focused and F-on-F classes you put on. As I recall, while we did do some twenty-yard precision stuff on a clay bird in the TF class, the F-on-F class covered some entirely new ground for most of the students. It certainly did for me, even though it was the fourth or fifth F-on-F class I had attended up to that time. Tueller, threading-the-needle, getting off the X and probably some others were new material. The material itself is what I find eye-opening and skill-building, not how well or poorly one performs their first time doing it. The hostage scenario you ran is a great example of that. Had I performed with the skill necessary to successfully solve that problem (I did, eventually), I wouldn't have learned anything. The fact that I did not is what prompted me to come home, acquire and maintain that necessary skill.

My failures and shortcomings in class are the lessons I bring home to build on and perfect for success. Yours have been some of the most outstanding I have attended in that particular regard. I've always gone home knowing what I need to work on. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for many of the others I've attended.
 

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Discussion Starter · #46 ·
I've attended threat-focused and F-on-F classes you put on. As I recall, while we did do some twenty-yard precision stuff on a clay bird in the TF class, the F-on-F class covered some entirely new ground for most of the students. It certainly did for me, even though it was the fourth or fifth F-on-F class I had attended up to that time. Tueller, threading-the-needle, getting off the X and probably some others were new material. The material itself is what I find eye-opening and skill-building, not how well or poorly one performs their first time doing it. The hostage scenario you ran is a great example of that. Had I performed with the skill necessary to successfully solve that problem (I did, eventually), I wouldn't have learned anything. The fact that I did not is what prompted me to come home, acquire and maintain that necessary skill.

My failures and shortcomings in class are the lessons I bring home to build on and perfect for success. Yours have been some of the most outstanding I have attended in that particular regard. I've always gone home knowing what I need to work on. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for many of the others I've attended.
Appreciate the thoughts sir
 

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I will admit I haven't read every response past the first page of this thread (due to time), but will try to answer the original post from my limited perspective, as this is a subject I'm very interested in.

I would welcome the type of training Brownie pronounces to provide. I'm new here so I don't know Brownie, nor his training, but his rep sounds legit from the responses to his post, not to mention the scenarios and ideas I see him posting here regularly. If anyone has recommendations on who and where to get this type of training particularly in West FL, I'm all ears. Sign me up. I particularly yearn for a force on force type of class from a reputable instructor.

I do try to get some type of training in with a handgun at least semi regularly. If that means a class where fundamentals are practice and repeated then so be it. If it includes drills on a timer great. If I learn something new I can take away and practice on my own even better.

My opinion is this. If were to use a comparison of any type of training that just focuses on how to handle a gun and make hits on paper or steel within a certain time limit it's similar to any other martial art, such as Karate, teaching you how to stand, move your feet, punch etc... It teaches the fundamentals of fighting skills. Skills that I can become very proficient at in a practice scenario. It doesn't introduce how to execute them in a fight in any way whatsoever. Everything is threat focused with the basic idea of there is some bad guy, try to hit it with a kick or punch, or bullets. It's equivalent to going to a boxing gym learning how to move and throw punches in front of a heavy bag. It doesn't compare to sparing, let alone going into the ring for a prize fight, and even less how to survive an attack by a thug (or thugs) in an alley. Yes you have some skills you can bring to the table, and those skills may help you survive, but they are very limited in scope.

My goal as a partitioner are to expand my scope and capabilities. To date that honestly for the most part includes mental exercises and contemplation of how I might be able to respond in (or better yet avoid) a life and death situation. From my life experience, I know that can be useful, but I'm not na茂ve enough to think for a second it is anywhere near as good as putting yourself in a truly stressful situation that makes you see, hear and feel what a "real" situation may actually be like. The way I see it, it's as much about learning about myself (my limitations and capabilities) as as it is about learning a skill, and becoming as prepared as possible for a situation that I will likely be incredibly unprepared for should it ever happen.
 

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It is very normal for the average person NOT to think that some day they might need to defend themselves. Bulls eye shooting is a hobby sport done for enjoyment. Maybe a sniper might use sights and bulls eye shooting skills to his advantage but he is typically not defending himself when doing so.
Once people realize that bad people will want what they have and are willing to take it with force then they momentarily wake up to the dangers surrounding them.
So at the ATM, gas pump, loading the car in a dark section of the store parking lot are far from their mind but are the situations these evil people look for.
Once aware of these situations and if concerned enough they realize the threat is within 4-10 feet and they now need to defend themselves and the need specifically THESE skills that become critical to their survival.
 

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It is very normal for the average person NOT to think that some day they might need to defend themselves. Bulls eye shooting is a hobby sport done for enjoyment. Maybe a sniper might use sights and bulls eye shooting skills to his advantage but he is typically not defending himself when doing so.
Once people realize that bad people will want what they have and are willing to take it with force then they momentarily wake up to the dangers surrounding them.
So at the ATM, gas pump, loading the car in a dark section of the store parking lot are far from their mind but are the situations these evil people look for.
Once aware of these situations and if concerned enough they realize the threat is within 4-10 feet and they now need to defend themselves and the need specifically THESE skills that become critical to their survival.
I'm not sure why people view this as either/or rather than all the above.

I've trained with Brownie, and have done my best to acquire, perfect and adopt the skills he taught into my own book of magic. With that said, it isn't my be all to end all. Where his techniques are the optimum to use in a given scenario, they are the ones I train to default to.

"Bullseye shooting", otoh isn't a hobby sport I do for enjoyment. The difference between me and a hobbyist bullseye shooter is that mine is coming out of the holster and putting a round in that 6x11 inch A-zone in under a second from seven yards away, or six rounds in under two seconds at the same distance. It is but another bit of magic I want to have up my sleeve. Will I never those abilities in a real situation? Probably not, hopefully not, but hopes and probabilities aren't my go-to strategies.

"Sniper shooting"? Yeah, it is something I might well have the need for, say in my synagogue when the guy with the AR is looking to kill all those friends of mine who occupy that twenty-plus yards between me and him. It is still an A-zone shot out of the holster, this one sub-one-point-five.

Another skill I am currently perfecting is three to the A-zone and two to the 3x5 head shot card at three yards, sub two seconds. Even though it is designed and intended for a red dot qualification standard, guess how I'm shooting it? Suffice to say I never see the dot.

If the goal is to be the average person, disregard everything I've just written and go on about your day. If not, give it some thought.
 

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I do not see this as either sighted aim or threat focus response to a threat. Both skills are needed to survive. there are no guarantees a situation will be static and stay within 4-10 feet or stay 20-30 feet (remember the drill about "how far can you run in 30 seconds armed with a knife:?).
 

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Discussion Starter · #51 ·
Everyone has to decide whether they want to be a one trick pony or be well rounded and able to adjust skills used on the fly depending on variable in play at the time. Time distance equations as has been mentioned here numerous times.

The more skills you acquire, the more you can call up as the best resolution to the problem at hand. It's not rocket science and people should be able comprehend this with the exception of those who don't know what they don't know and aren't interested in being well rounded.

I can shoot bulls eye/thread the needle shots [ command of the basics ] and have another dozen skills with a pistol to call upon when precision shots aren't necessary and time is not on my side to end the problem.
 

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Everyone has to decide whether they want to be a one trick pony or be well rounded and able to adjust skills used on the fly depending on variable in play at the time. Time distance equations as has been mentioned here numerous times.

The more skills you acquire, the more you can call up as the best resolution to the problem at hand. It's not rocket science and people should be able comprehend this with the exception of those who don't know what they don't know and aren't interested in being well rounded.

I can shoot bulls eye/thread the needle shots [ command of the basics ] and have another dozen skills with a pistol to call upon when precision shots aren't necessary and time is not on my side to end the problem.
That right there.
 

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Discussion Starter · #54 · (Edited)
I was grateful that I already had a passing command of handgun basics before taking December's TFP class. Although perhaps not hard and fast prerequisites, the skills I had freed me to more fully concentrate on the class content rather than on the basics.

Interesting aside...you want to know something that naturally encourages one to learn (and unwittingly practice) point shooting? The beginnings of a cataract and an astigmatism in one's dominant eye. I can't see sheeet..my sites may as well not exist!
Nor do they need to exist when one has learned how to use their natural ability. I don't see the problem with not being able to see the sights clearly. But it's been 42 years since I've not needed to look at the gun at all. Sometimes I forget others haven't been exposed to their natural abilities. We all have them, I just brought them to the fore for students, options as it were to FSP
 
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