[brownie]

Boss, everything has to start somewhere. Trigger control, locking the wrist with semi auto fire, safe gun handling, ...

You should have those in place or go to a class that teaches it to you before you jump to a threat focus class.

Mind you, the RO's in the classes here are superb.

Feel free to disagree, but no one is born knowing how to shoot a firearm accurately and safely in a hot/cold range scenario.

We evaluated the students first thing in the morning with a sighted fire no time limit drill to establish those who may be less than up to speed on safely handling a firearm [ I didn't on my own COF but Rick made the suggestion and when he co-trained with me, we'd use that drill ].

I couldn't care less if they have command of the basics, it was about command of their safe gun handling around others [ first time for many on a line of shooters all firing at the same time ]. The drill Rick recommended did bring to light those who the RSO's should concentrate on more than others.

 

[mike1956]

We evaluated the students first thing in the morning with a sighted fire no time limit drill to establish those who may be less than up to speed on safely handling a firearm [ I didn't on my own COF but Rick made the suggestion and when he co-trained with me, we'd use that drill ].

I couldn't care less if they have command of the basics, it was about command of their safe gun handling around others [ first time for many on a line of shooters all firing at the same time ]. The drill Rick recommended did bring to light those who the RSO's should concentrate on more than others.

An evaluation of skills from the holster might also be something to consider in future classes. Whether you teach those skills or not, such evaluations might help those with marginal skills to slow down and keep from getting ahead of themselves.

 

[Calimwulf]

Those skills can be just as easily imparted in a threat-focused class as in something FSP-oriented. Again, what do neat holes have to do with that? Not disagreeing, but simply trying to understand the rationale of your assertions.

'Threat focused' SD isn't a matter of using sights or not. For what ever reason, that is where you want to go.

Threat focused is about identify the threat and ending that threat before the threat ends you.

Use of sights, front sight focused, no sights at all are means to an end.

Look at what brownie is saying. He took a class of 'operatives' and taught them how to do their job better.

Guess what those folks knew how to do before they got to the class? Shoot accurately. Shoot safely. They had spent years in training, and all of that started with drilling holes in a piece of paper, slowly.

 

[Calimwulf]

We evaluated the students first thing in the morning with a sighted fire no time limit drill to establish those who may be less than up to speed on safely handling a firearm [ I didn't on my own COF but Rick made the suggestion and when he co-trained with me, we'd use that drill ].

I couldn't care less if they have command of the basics, it was about command of their safe gun handling around others [ first time for many on a line of shooters all firing at the same time ]. The drill Rick recommended did bring to light those who the RSO's should concentrate on more than others.

In no way am I trying to insult you, how you teach, and certainly not what you teach.

I'm on target, shooting faster with no loss of accuracy. Trust me, I tried proving you wrong .)

My point is a heck of a lot more generic than any of that.

 

[mike1956]

'Threat focused' SD isn't a matter of using sights or not. For what ever reason, that is where you want to go.

Threat focused is about identify the threat and ending that threat before the threat ends you.

Use of sights, front sight focused, no sights at all are means to an end.

Look at what brownie is saying. He took a class of 'operatives' and taught them how to do their job better.

Guess what those folks knew how to do before they got to the class? Shoot accurately. Shoot safely. They had spent years in training, and all of that started with drilling holes in a piece of paper, slowly.

Where are you coming up with this?

 

[Calimwulf]

Where are you coming up with this?

Be more specific boss.

Are you saying that threat focused shooting isn't about ending the threat before it ends you?

If you are asking why I think that way, it's a different discussion.

 

[mike1956]

Be more specific boss.

Are you saying that threat focused shooting isn't about ending the threat before it ends you?

If you are asking why I think that way, it's a different discussion.

I'm saying that threat-focused shooting is just that. The shooter's focus is on the target. No more to it than that.

 

[nittany lion fan]

I was grateful that I already had a passing command of handgun basics before taking December's TFP class. Although perhaps not hard and fast prerequisites, the skills I had freed me to more fully concentrate on the class content rather than on the basics.

Interesting aside...you want to know something that naturally encourages one to learn (and unwittingly practice) point shooting? The beginnings of a cataract and an astigmatism in one's dominant eye. I can't see sheeet..my sights may as well not exist!

 

[mike1956]

I was grateful that I already had a passing command of handgun basics before taking December's TFP class. Although perhaps not hard and fast prerequisites, the skills I had freed me to more fully concentrate on the class content rather than on the basics.

Interesting aside...you want to know something that naturally encourages one to learn (and unwittingly practice) point shooting? The beginnings of a cataract and an astigmatism in one's dominant eye. I can't see sheeet..my sites may as well not exist!

I'm nearsighted, and cannot draw a clear focus on the front sight, with or without corrective lenses. At distance, however I have very precise focus.

 

[brownie]

I was grateful that I already had a passing command of handgun basics before taking December's TFP class. Although perhaps not hard and fast prerequisites, the skills I had freed me to more fully concentrate on the class content rather than on the basics.

Interesting aside...you want to know something that naturally encourages one to learn (and unwittingly practice) point shooting? The beginnings of a cataract and an astigmatism in one's dominant eye. I can't see sheeet..my sites may as well not exist!

Here's the thing about people who believe they have command of the basics [ and you may very well have had and have today, command of the basic tenets [ handhold, trigger control, sight alignment ].

Near 20 students IIRC at a TF COF in Volusia. I set up a thread the needle scenario. They had to put a shot into a narrow 6" window laterally, and the full torso vertically from 20 feet. Two innocents placed on either side affording that narrow window to take out the shooter. There was NO time limit to make the shot unlike the real world where you'd have a short window to take advantage of that opening if you're lucky.

Out of lets say 18 people who stepped up and tried to thread the needle at 20 feet, maybe 4-5 made the shot on the BG. People were pretty disheartened about their not being able to make the shot given all the time they wanted. We discussed it some for a few minutes, then someone asked me if I was going to shoot it. I wasn't planning on it, but when asked to demonstrate myself, thought it only fair to try as I wouldn't ask students to do something I couldn't do.
shot that if missed would hit a bystander, not just be a 8 ring score instead of 9 or a X. I made the shot, taking my time, but in under 2 seconds.

I think if I had them stand on a line at 20 feet they could all pretty much keep the shot in that 6" lateral window, but having to shoot between innocents changed their shooting prowess. Why, because they were then faced with making a shot where theoretically, an innocent may be hit or killed.

My signature line came to the fore on that exercise. Their mind, not familiar with shooting anything on a static line with such constraints for accuracy like innocents perceived the shot more difficult to make. Thus the reason for training both FSP and TF skills, one may need to make a precision shot like that or more people die, maybe a family member. Their brains changed the dynamics of static shooting the same 6" lateral window on a line with a full target exposed to a situation that they weren't quite sure they could make. Their brain, not experiencing such a risky shot, brought hesitation to their actual skills. The stress applied of hitting an innocent changed their ability, but only because the brain perceived it as far more difficult as it was.

Their mind was their limiting factor. Not so much their command of the basics.

 

[mike1956]

Here's the thing about people who believe they have command of the basics [ and you may very well have had and have today, command of the basic tenets [ handhold, trigger control, sight alignment ].

Near 20 students IIRC at a TF COF in Volusia. I set up a thread the needle scenario. They had to put a shot into a narrow 6" window laterally, and the full torso vertically from 20 feet. Two innocents placed on either side affording that narrow window to take out the shooter. There was NO time limit to make the shot unlike the real world where you'd have a short window to take advantage of that opening if you're lucky.

Out of lets say 18 people who stepped up and tried to thread the needle at 20 feet, all but 4-5 made the shot on the BG. People were pretty disheartened about their not being able to make the shot given all the time they wanted. We discussed it some for a few minutes, then someone asked me if I was going to shoot it. I wasn't planning on it, but when asked to demonstrate myself, thought it only fair to try as I wouldn't ask students to do something I couldn't do.
shot that if missed would hit a bystander, not just be a 8 ring score instead of 9 or a X. I made the shot, taking my time, but in under 2 seconds.

I think if I had them stand on a line at 20 feet they could all pretty much keep the shot in that 6" lateral window, but having to shoot between innocents changed their shooting prowess. Why, because they were then faced with making a shot where theoretically, an innocent my be hit or killed.

My signature line came to the fore on that exercise. Their mind, not familiar with shooting anything on a static line with such constraints for accuracy like innocents perceived the shot more difficult to make.

Their mind was their limiting factor. Not so much their command of the basics

The hole is much easier to climb out of if you have climbed out of it before. Sometimes, you don't know what you do know...

 

[brownie]

I need cheaters to read normal print, but I can still see the front sight for now. Having been taught how to ignore the front sight 42 years ago and never looking back needing it make great hits, with the rare exception of practicing precision shots I've not worried about the day I can't see it, in fact it may help from the distraction I've learned to ignore called a front sight.

 

[mike1956]

It occurs to me that I have been regularly practicing threading that needle ever since the F-on-F class Brownie is talking about. I honestly do not recall whether I made the shot that day or not. What I do recall is realizing the need to be able to do so. Training classes usually run that way for me. Rather than concerning myself with how well I do or don't do on a particular skill in class, I try to gain enough understanding of it to enable me to go home and practice it to proficiency. If I perform everything well in class, why am I spending good money to be there?

 

[exbluelight]

mike1956..... I always respect your opinions and input here...you have a lot of experience and knowledge....but, do not think for a minute that the basic skills can not help you in a threat focus class, example that I had a class with Brownie.... we had a lot of class members that were doing badly....We conferred, I suggested to stop, put up bull eyes target and have them shoot with sights at a slow pace using sights,..... we spent time to evaluate each member....corrected some things..... after that, all did a whole lot better .....maybe shooting little holes in a target is not required for stopping a threat, the purpose of threat focus, but it sure can help you get the skills to be a better at it... I practice both areas of shooting....one compliments the other.... Brownie has said the same thing in the past. Use the right tool for the right job. Make sure you have the right tool for the job when you need it.

 

[mike1956]

mike1956..... I always respect your opinions and input here...you have a lot of experience and knowledge....but, do not think for a minute that the basic skills can not help you in a threat focus class, example that I had a class with Brownie.... we had a lot of class members that were doing badly....We conferred, I suggested to stop, put up bull eyes target and have them shoot with sights at a slow pace using sights,..... we sent time to evaluate each member....corrected some things..... after that, all did a whole lot better .....maybe shooting little holes in a target is not required for stopping a threat, the purpose of threat focus, but it sure can help you get the skills to be a better at it... I practice both areas of shooting....one compliments the other.... Brownie has said the same thing in the past. Use the right tool for the right job. Make sure you have the right tool for the job when you need it.

Nowhere have I ever asserted that basic skills aren't a necessary element of effective shooting instruction. What I do maintain is that FSP skills needn't be a prerequisite for basic firearms training. Effective grip and trigger control are essentials for most any shooting endeavor.

 

[Rick McC.]

Those skills can be just as easily imparted in a threat-focused class as in something FSP-oriented. Again, what do neat holes have to do with that? Not disagreeing, but simply trying to understand the rationale of your assertions.

Not to put words in anyone’s mouth; but I thought that he was just referring to someone having learned the basics of handgun shooting, and basic firearm safety.

In every one of Brownie’s TFP classes that I’ve attended except my first; the students were required to shoot five rounds at a bullseye target at five yards; no time constraints or other shooter conditions. That was so the instructor could get an idea of what level of shooters the students were. As you well know; Brownie and EBL are both able to discern what shooting shortcomings each student brings to the TF skills; and they’re able to provide the direction needed to get the student’s performance corrected.

If a student hasn’t even made an effort to learn the basics of handgun shooting; there’s not much of any foundation for the instructor to build on.

 

[Rick McC.]

I was grateful that I already had a passing command of handgun basics before taking December's TFP class. Although perhaps not hard and fast prerequisites, the skills I had freed me to more fully concentrate on the class content rather than on the basics.

Interesting aside...you want to know something that naturally encourages one to learn (and unwittingly practice) point shooting? The beginnings of a cataract and an astigmatism in one's dominant eye. I can't see sheeet..my sites may as well not exist!

I’ve been lining up the blurs for years, Bro! 🤣
But not nearly as much in the last nine years (since my first TFP class).

 

[brownie]

Not to put words in anyone’s mouth; but I thought that he was just referring to someone having learned the basics of handgun shooting, and basic firearm safety.

In every one of Brownie’s TFP classes that I’ve attended except my first; the students were required to shoot five rounds at a bullseye target at five yards; no time constraints or other shooter conditions. That was so the instructor could get an idea of what level of shooters the students were. As you well know; Brownie and EBL are both able to discern what shooting shortcomings each student brings to the TF skills; and they’re able to provide the direction needed to get the student’s performance corrected.

If a student hasn’t even made an effort to learn the basics of handgun shooting; there’s not much of any foundation for the instructor to build on.

As we learned in one of the COF's when a female showed up with nary any pistol handling skills, let alone the basics. She struggled all weekend. IIRC, I had to put shooter4 on her full time all weekend, and he gave her pointers throughout the two days, many the same as she at that point was quite intimidated by those around her kicking butt and taking names.

 

[nittany lion fan]

I’ve been lining up the blurs for years, Bro!

That about sums it up. The blurs converge into one larger one.

New class name for over 60 shooters...Threat Unfocused Shooting?! 🤓

 

[brownie]

That about sums it up. The blurs converge into one larger one.

New class name for over 60 shooters...Threat Unfocused Shooting?! 🤓

More like sights unfocused shooting. Hey, that would be just an ordinary threat focused skill