Florida Concealed Carry banner

41 - 60 of 63 Posts

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
5,993 Posts
Literally everyone here has missed the entire point of my original post.
Frankly, I'm disappointed about that as I truly thought we had a brighter bunch of folks here -- or, maybe I just did too poor of a job explaining it.

I'll withdraw the scenario (which was NEVER even remotely intended to be anything like "real life"), and just let this thread drift wherever it pleases.

But for those now scratching their heads wondering "WTF?, Did I miss something?...."
The original point was to lay out a scenario (for discussion purposes only) to probe just how far people on the left are willing to put up with social injustices (like ANTIFA, looting, assault, etc...)
When it's the "other guy", it's one set of rhetoric / outcomes. But when it's personal (i.e., a scar), do people change their minds?
Or are that still that dense?

But like I said - I'm done here.
If it's too much trouble to explain it, I guess it wasn't worth talking about it in the first place.
So, my apologies. :)
Knowing a lot of the guys who responded, I would say that it’s not that you did a poor job with the scenario, it’s that the people who responded differently than you expected have all had some sort of hand to hand /knife training or force on force (or been in actual situations like you described).

I was taught that if you’re in a knife fight, there will be cuts, etc, so fight to minimize them to non life threatening areas. But that there are so many places on your body that even a shallow cut could mean your death, so don’t take a chance.

Even cuts to the back of your arms could mean a slow death if the cut gets infected. Especially to those of us who are older or have underlying health conditions that give us a low immune response.

Plus there are never any guarantees in a knife fight (or any fight). Your best bet is always to end the fight as quickly as possible with whatever the best means that you have on hand. So if that’s a gun, I think I could easily articulate that a guy coming at me with a knife intended to do great bodily harm or death.

Be ruthless and quick to stop the fight. Any other response probably ends badly.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,074 Posts
Discussion Starter #42
My sincere apologies if I pushed anybody's buttons, or ruffled their feathers with my earlier comment.

What I am trying to understand is why some people, including our former Vice President, seem to believe that (and I'll paraphrase), that's the responsible thing to do is "take the cut", (i.e., the thrust of my original post) in order to save a life, particularly or perhaps especially, if it's a black life, or a minority. In other words, mollify "the other side" even at your own expense -- which of course, I don't think they even comprehend in the first place.

Situations like:
Let that guy drive drunk, it's only a hamburger.
Just shoot (the deadly oncoming threat) in the leg. (Or shoot the weapon out of their hands.)
It's OK to shoot at the police as long as it's not a lethal weapon.

I even heard (as justification), "A taser is single-shot, so the officer should have known there was 'no danger'".

What a load of horseshit.

So to recap: All this "armchair quarter-backing" going on, mostly from the left, I wanted to posit the idea that if we put people who think this way into those types of scenarios, would they change their idiotic positions? (My guess is, "Absolutely!!", and that means ....

Oops - I'll have to leave you hanging on that one. :)

I have a dentist checkup and cleaning at 10.
(I truly dislike things scraping on my teeth!)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,714 Posts
I have a dentist checkup and cleaning at 10.
(I truly dislike things scraping on my teeth!)
I'm offended! ;)

What about a good steak "scraping" on your teeth? ;)

Situations like:
Let that guy drive drunk, it's only a hamburger.
Just shoot (the deadly oncoming threat) in the leg. (Or shoot the weapon out of their hands.)
It's OK to shoot at the police as long as it's not a lethal weapon.

I even heard (as justification), "A taser is single-shot, so the officer should have known there was 'no danger'".
What's amazing to me is not so much the profound ignorance being displayed. It's the SMUGNESS and unjustifiable CONFIDENCE with which they spew these demonstrably RIDICULOUS notions.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,074 Posts
Discussion Starter #44
I'm offended! ;)

What about a good steak "scraping" on your teeth? ;)



What's amazing to me is not so much the profound ignorance being displayed. It's the SMUGNESS and unjustifiable CONFIDENCE with which they spew these demonstrably RIDICULOUS notions.
Good point!
I'd make an exception for a Porterhouse. :)

Although my dachshund would be pretty upset if I handed him a bone with no meat scraps on it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,201 Posts
I'm wondering whether the following scenario (however improbable) would sway some of these (I don't even know what to call them..):

You're not the aggressor or instigator, but someone with an attitude/agenda comes at you with a knife.
You're armed, and a good aim in a crisis.
The ONLY way to prevent getting cut is to shoot the attacker, and if you shoot, (under this scenario) the attacker will die right there at the scene.

Here's the wrinkle:
The outcome is guaranteed that you're going to get cut, but that cut won't be life threatening, won't get infected, and will definitely need fewer than 10 stitches to patch you up. You will have a permanent, ugly scar on your person to memorialize the encounter - but otherwise no lasting issues whatsoever. Your insurance will cover the hospital costs, and your premiums won't go up.

Question:
Do you shoot (and thereby kill)?
Or are you willing to trade a small scar to "save" the attacker's life?

To me, (and I've only thought though this "what-if" scenario for barely a few hours, so it may have some problems), but I think it gets to the core of "personal defense".
When it's somebody else, especially a stranger on TV, it's easy (for some) to armchair referee what "should" be done, and what the outcome "should" be.
(* Here, I'm specifically thinking about the allegedly drunk guy in the Wendy's parking lot who got shot twice in the back by police after (again, allegedly) resisting arrest, forcefully taking one of the officer's weapons (a taser), and then (allegedly) firing, or attempting to fire said weapon at the officers.)

Now I guess, depending on how the discussion goes... there are modifiers that could be added.
It might tease out some interesting (yet flawed) beliefs that people unconcerned with personal defense might harbor.

For example: Let's say....
1) The scar wouldn't be visible to most people, in ordinary life situations (work, play, etc...)
2) Or - The scar would be on your face.
3) Or - The attacker's rap sheet shows a long history of violent assault
4) Or - What if the attacker is a teenager?
5) Or - What if that teenager is pregnant?
4) Or - Fill in the blank ???

It would be interesting to see how some of those armchair referees / media pundits wiggle around a scenario like this.

Comments anyone?
There is so many problems with your thought process. And i am not brow beating you. Number 1, we never shoot to kill. Number 2- with a knife you can never say you are just going to get cut. You need to look up on youtube knife attacks. You at risk of dying. 3-If you use deadly force you shoot to stop the threat. If they die it is ancillary to sto[ping the threat and should be of no concern to you. 4-Age doesn't matter when someone is trying to deal death or great bodily harm to you,
Hope this helps you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20,253 Posts
Dude. Chill, OK.
lol..."dude"...I'm as chill as they get...i'm not going to stand by quietly while you bait and then insult members...and if it helps...i'm smiling...:D
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rick McC.

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,568 Posts
Well, as I said before “a conservative is a liberal that’s been mugged” I understand the point of the original post now.

As far as edged weapons go, I guess the best defense is keep people out of range. I found in law-enforcement there are a couple points at which prisoners start the fight. It’s when the handcuffs go on initially and when they’re being put in the car. When I got stabbed in the vest by a barbecue fork, my partner was having trouble getting the cuffs on a domestic abuse arrestee. I was helping him and never saw it coming.

I guess it’s true what they say about the most dangerous knife being the one you don’t see.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,064 Posts
My sincere apologies if I pushed anybody's buttons, or ruffled their feathers with my earlier comment.

What I am trying to understand is why some people, including our former Vice President, seem to believe that (and I'll paraphrase), that's the responsible thing to do is "take the cut", (i.e., the thrust of my original post) in order to save a life.......
What a load of horseshit.
Our "former Vice President" (and a God forbid, future President) is a typical, uneducated, libtard politician asshole when it comes to life! What experience does he have when it comes to having to protect HIMSELF! Secret service or bodyguards don't count! Maybe he (and anyone else stupid enough to make that statement) should have to "take the cut" before they run their mouth and see if they like it! ME? Yeah, I'll choose to protect myself and try everything in my power to NOTget stabbed/cut in the first place!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,862 Posts
If the initial question was rhetorical about how liberal far left would someone stay under attack...? Well, I'd just say it is a lot more common and easy to advise to turn the other cheek when someone else is slapped, than oneself. :dunno



There is so many problems with your thought process. And i am not brow beating you. Number 1, we never shoot to kill. Number 2- with a knife you can never say you are just going to get cut. You need to look up on youtube knife attacks. You at risk of dying. 3-If you use deadly force you shoot to stop the threat. If they die it is ancillary to sto[ping the threat and should be of no concern to you. 4-Age doesn't matter when someone is trying to deal death or great bodily harm to you,
Hope this helps you.
Bob did not list 5. Defending against a knife attack, shooting only won't stop been cut sometimes. If you don't increase distance you might still be cut by a dead man walking. You learn that in training too.

Now, when someone tells me "it's just a knife" i just remind them that surgeons use a little over and inch of steel to open you up. After all, a couple of inches deep cut to certain parts of your body can get you unconscious in 30 seconds and dead in 2 minutes. For example, brachial artery, running along inside of your arms, unconscious in 15 seconds, dead in about 90 seconds. Yes, that is a deep artery... Now: How big are your arms? How fast will you have anyone there to help you? The bright side: you only will have time to say "wow, am i bleeding or what?" and you'll be unconscious. :grin

Sent from phone
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,862 Posts
Oh... "Runs deep" means that the brachial runs about 1/2 inch deep by the bend of the elbow... You know. Deep.
Carotid is about 1.5" deep and takes more time to pass out and die.
I think some years ago i started a thread with all times to bleed out from different knife wounds... Morbid of me that like to know how long someone will have to shoot me...

Sent from phone
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,692 Posts
So, all this made me think of something I will throw out there. I used to work with a guy who claimed that he was an "absolute pacifist." Asked to explain, he said that he would never use force against another human being, no matter what the circumstances.

So I asked him, "You mean to tell me that if I started choking you right now, you would do nothing at all to try to stop me? You would just stand there and let me choke you to death?"

"I might try to move away," he said, "but I would not use any form of force against you."

At that point, I quite literally laughed in his face. I told him that he was completely delusional, and that I had absolutely no doubt at all that he WOULD, in fact, fight back if someone was to try to choke him to death. It would be a natural reaction that he could not stop. Of course he tried to convince me that he was sincere, but I told him that the only way I would EVER believe him would be if he died in a situation where he could have stopped it by fighting back, but chose not to.

"If that ever happens," I said, "you can sit in Heaven and enjoy the thought that you finally convinced me. Except... OOPS! You're an atheist! So you'll just be dead, and that will be the end of that!"

One of the more absurd conversations that I've ever had.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
26,332 Posts
^^^^
68437
 
  • Like
Reactions: bladenbullet

·
Registered
Joined
·
54,302 Posts
So, all this made me think of something I will throw out there. I used to work with a guy who claimed that he was an "absolute pacifist." Asked to explain, he said that he would never use force against another human being, no matter what the circumstances.

So I asked him, "You mean to tell me that if I started choking you right now, you would do nothing at all to try to stop me? You would just stand there and let me choke you to death?"

"I might try to move away," he said, "but I would not use any form of force against you."

At that point, I quite literally laughed in his face. I told him that he was completely delusional, and that I had absolutely no doubt at all that he WOULD, in fact, fight back if someone was to try to choke him to death. It would be a natural reaction that he could not stop. Of course he tried to convince me that he was sincere, but I told him that the only way I would EVER believe him would be if he died in a situation where he could have stopped it by fighting back, but chose not to.

"If that ever happens," I said, "you can sit in Heaven and enjoy the thought that you finally convinced me. Except... OOPS! You're an atheist! So you'll just be dead, and that will be the end of that!"

One of the more absurd conversations that I've ever had.
Had a young man [ student ] who grew up with a gold spoon in his mouth. Parents gave him private schools and the best college to become a rocket scientist. He graduated in that field and was working for NASA.

Had never been in a fight in his life, not even on the playground as a kid. He told us this and the fed pulled him aside and told him he'd fight or else. He stood there and got his face slapped harder and harder until he'd had enough, and started to fight back, trying to really hurt the fed [ but he couldn't with no training against a superior sd instructor ].

Immediately upon calming down, he started sobbing uncontrollably. When asked why he was so upset? He learned ugly actually did reside in him, and he never wanted to acknowledge he had it in him to hurt anyone. The fed pushed him till he fought back, and it was a new world for him to live in from that day forward.

People have ugly in them, it's just that many have never seen ugly come out and go to work so they don't believe that ugly resides in them waiting to go to work.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,074 Posts
Discussion Starter #54
So, all this made me think of something I will throw out there. I used to work with a guy who claimed that he was an "absolute pacifist." Asked to explain, he said that he would never use force against another human being, no matter what the circumstances.

So I asked him, "You mean to tell me that if I started choking you right now, you would do nothing at all to try to stop me? You would just stand there and let me choke you to death?"

"I might try to move away," he said, "but I would not use any form of force against you."

At that point, I quite literally laughed in his face. I told him that he was completely delusional, and that I had absolutely no doubt at all that he WOULD, in fact, fight back if someone was to try to choke him to death. It would be a natural reaction that he could not stop. Of course he tried to convince me that he was sincere, but I told him that the only way I would EVER believe him would be if he died in a situation where he could have stopped it by fighting back, but chose not to.

"If that ever happens," I said, "you can sit in Heaven and enjoy the thought that you finally convinced me. Except... OOPS! You're an atheist! So you'll just be dead, and that will be the end of that!"

One of the more absurd conversations that I've ever had.
The following is not quite the same thing, but maybe close in that it at least speaks to how far someone will go when acting upon their core beliefs:

The mother of a life-long friend of mine literally died on her kitchen floor from completely, and deliberately untreated pneumonia.
She was a Christian Scientist by faith, and she simply did not believe in medical intervention of any kind.

I am sure that if she would have just made a simple doctor's visit, pop a few pills (or whatever) and she would have lived several years longer.
I was fairly close to her, since her son and I have been friends since childhood - but to this day we are both completely baffled by her steadfast decisions, even to the very end.
I don't know if I could do that myself (I mean, if I believed the way she did). I think gasping for air while drowning in pneumonia might make someone re-think that.

So, DenverdOn, -- I'm inclined to think as you do (that people pushed to the edge will indeed ACT).
But it isn't always the case.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
54,302 Posts
The following is not quite the same thing, but maybe close in that it at least speaks to how far someone will go when acting upon their core beliefs:

The mother of a life-long friend of mine literally died on her kitchen floor from completely, and deliberately untreated pneumonia.
She was a Christian Scientist by faith, and she simply did not believe in medical intervention of any kind.

I am sure that if she would have just made a simple doctor's visit, pop a few pills (or whatever) and she would have lived several years longer.
I was fairly close to her, since her son and I have been friends since childhood - but to this day we are both completely baffled by her steadfast decisions, even to the very end.
I don't know if I could do that myself (I mean, if I believed the way she did). I think gasping for air while drowning in pneumonia might make someone re-think that.

So, DenverdOn, -- I'm inclined to think as you do (that people pushed to the edge will indeed ACT).
But it isn't always the case.
The will to survive is strong in most people, but they have to be pushed to the brink of death before some will actually act in their own defense
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
I was in Brownie’s Force on Force class where we did this. Everyone was able to get a shot off because we were expecting the attack. But some of us barely got the shot off.

In the real world a man with a knife who is coming at you in attack mode will most likely get a lot closer to you than Brownie did in our class, so you better be prepared with non gun based evasion techniques that lead you to a firing solution.
To me, the key is situational awareness. The guy with the knife should not be able come within an approachable distance without you knowing he is around. Head on a swivel....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,862 Posts
Not just the will to survive... I have a coworker with kids same age as mine so kids had grown sharing time and going out together... When hers were little they were opposed to give them toy guns. Totally against guns. So in a conversation about guns and violence I asked her at the end if she was so against it that they would be willing to left a stranger break in their house, tie them, beat them and rape and kill their sons without defending themselves. And she told me that she would if the only solution would be killing someone. I finished that conversation with a shrug.
Two years ago they had a break in. With them in the house. Thieves took a laptop and some money and ran when they woke up. No violence at all. No long lasting consequences except arming the alarm and changing the lock. But next day he (husband) walked into a gun store and bought a gun. I just made some passing comments about learning how to use and safety rules. Comments i know also fell in empty ears.

So... that's how long THAT belief lasted.

Sent from phone
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,714 Posts
Two years ago they had a break in. With them in the house. Thieves took a laptop and some money and ran when they woke up. No violence at all. No long lasting consequences except arming the alarm and changing the lock. But next day he (husband) walked into a gun store and bought a gun. I just made some passing comments about learning how to use and safety rules. Comments i know also fell in empty ears.

So... that's how long THAT belief lasted.

Sent from phone
The old joke goes, "A liberal is just a conservative who hasn't been mugged, yet."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
I'm wondering whether the following scenario (however improbable) would sway some of these (I don't even know what to call them..):

You're not the aggressor or instigator, but someone with an attitude/agenda comes at you with a knife.
You're armed, and a good aim in a crisis.
The ONLY way to prevent getting cut is to shoot the attacker, and if you shoot, (under this scenario) the attacker will die right there at the scene.

Here's the wrinkle:
The outcome is guaranteed that you're going to get cut, but that cut won't be life threatening, won't get infected, and will definitely need fewer than 10 stitches to patch you up. You will have a permanent, ugly scar on your person to memorialize the encounter - but otherwise no lasting issues whatsoever. Your insurance will cover the hospital costs, and your premiums won't go up.

Question:
Do you shoot (and thereby kill)?
Or are you willing to trade a small scar to "save" the attacker's life?

To me, (and I've only thought though this "what-if" scenario for barely a few hours, so it may have some problems), but I think it gets to the core of "personal defense".
When it's somebody else, especially a stranger on TV, it's easy (for some) to armchair referee what "should" be done, and what the outcome "should" be.
(* Here, I'm specifically thinking about the allegedly drunk guy in the Wendy's parking lot who got shot twice in the back by police after (again, allegedly) resisting arrest, forcefully taking one of the officer's weapons (a taser), and then (allegedly) firing, or attempting to fire said weapon at the officers.)

Now I guess, depending on how the discussion goes... there are modifiers that could be added.
It might tease out some interesting (yet flawed) beliefs that people unconcerned with personal defense might harbor.

For example: Let's say....
1) The scar wouldn't be visible to most people, in ordinary life situations (work, play, etc...)
2) Or - The scar would be on your face.
3) Or - The attacker's rap sheet shows a long history of violent assault
4) Or - What if the attacker is a teenager?
5) Or - What if that teenager is pregnant?
4) Or - Fill in the blank ???

It would be interesting to see how some of those armchair referees / media pundits wiggle around a scenario like this.

Comments anyone?
Why did you even come up with that scenario and possible outcomes?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
54,302 Posts
To me, the key is situational awareness. The guy with the knife should not be able come within an approachable distance without you knowing he is around. Head on a swivel....
Here's the problem with SA where an aggressor is going to use a knife. They are contact weapons, and nearly all attacks happen at conversational distances, not 21 feet. Most people don't fully understand why the 21 foot rule. The central point of Tueller's 21-Foot Principle is the awareness that an average person can sprint 21 feet in roughly 1.5 seconds. When deciding how to respond to a lethal threat, the time it takes to draw from a holster and fire two unaimed shots becomes important. If the attack happens from 5-8 feet [ when you recognize there's a threat that's got a knife ] one better have brought their A game H2h skills with them. The firearm holstered on your person is USELESS until one can create time and distance or negate the threat using H2h skills.
If you're targeted, it's very unlikely you'll know you're under attack until it's an up close and personal affair.
I suggest training the CSR [ collapsing startle response ] for such Oh crap moments. Reach out to deflect, intercept the knife, you've opened your core to damage. I wonder how many students remember the CSR training in our courses.
 
41 - 60 of 63 Posts
Top