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I wonder what the track record of modified weapons is in civil cases? Not suggesting it matters in criminal procedures (or doesn’t) but how about law suits? :unsure:
It’s simple. There is not one single case where a modification of a gun made a difference in a self defense case. FEELINGS don’t mean ****.
 

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Discussion Starter · #62 ·
And that is what matters. Stop listening to these so called experts on mods. It has no bearing on self defense cases. The only thing that matters is if the self defense shooting meets the self defense guidelines at trial. The rest is in fact rhetoric.
I think it is prudent for anyone who has smartly decided to take charge of his / her own safety and self-defense to be SUPER-familiar with the laws of self-defense. Commit them to memory. Know them COLD. There are plenty of resources. But, I think two very good places to start are the books by Gutmacher and Branca.
 

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I think it is prudent for anyone who has smartly decided to take charge of his / her own safety and self-defense to be SUPER-familiar with the laws of self-defense. Commit them to memory. Know them COLD. There are plenty of resources. But, I think two very good places to start are the books by Gutmacher and Branca.
I agree. But do not depend on lawyers. Read the actual statutes. They say what they say. Not what some lawyer says they say.
 

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I agree. But do not depend on lawyers. Read the actual statutes. They say what they say. Not what some lawyer says they say.
That’s the fastest way to wind up in jail. Just read the law yourself and rely on whatever you think it means. Bob, if you read and understood what I wrote, you’d get it. I understand you always have to be right in your mind, but you just try to change the debate to suit your purposes then curse out those who don’t play along.

You obviously made up facts about “it’s been tried hundreds of times” just to argue when you couldn’t possibly know. I try to explain things to folks then you fly off arguing things that make no sense. I’m trying to be respectful but you don’t get the evidence code, don’t get post-SYG risk/nuance and the way things actually work. You are a great resource when you talk about things you really know very well. This just isn’t one of them.

When you start opining that something won’t work in any courtroom in the U.S. do you realize how silly that sounds? I would never say that and I have actual experience practicing in the court system.

MPDC, weapon mods change the liability picture in civil cases more easily than criminal cases. I had a ND case in Jacksonville where a .40 cal round sailed thru lots of drywall and hit my guy. The case settled, but opposing counsel told me he was really worried about the mods getting in front of the jury.

That’s the problem if you don’t survive SYG, the jury, as a matter of course gets to see the weapon. If we assume that most jurors aren’t gun folk, having cute sayings, fancy ceracoat jobs and other mods will never help your cause. You never know and never get to know what a jury uses to make their decision. You hit someone in a stock Toyota versus a 96 Impala SS with hydraulics and flames at the fender wells, guess who gets the better treatment? Accident scene photos always are admitted.

Social media history plays a greater role than ever and can tip the scales against you these days.
 

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That’s the fastest way to wind up in jail. Just read the law yourself and rely on whatever you think it means. Bob, if you read and understood what I wrote, you’d get it. I understand you always have to be right in your mind, but you just try to change the debate to suit your purposes then curse out those who don’t play along.

You obviously made up facts about “it’s been tried hundreds of times” just to argue when you couldn’t possibly know. I try to explain things to folks then you fly off arguing things that make no sense. I’m trying to be respectful but you don’t get the evidence code, don’t get post-SYG risk/nuance and the way things actually work. You are a great resource when you talk about things you really know very well. This just isn’t one of them.

When you start opining that something won’t work in any courtroom in the U.S. do you realize how silly that sounds? I would never say that and I have actual experience practicing in the court system.

MPDC, weapon mods change the liability picture in civil cases more easily than criminal cases. I had a ND case in Jacksonville where a .40 cal round sailed thru lots of drywall and hit my guy. The case settled, but opposing counsel told me he was really worried about the mods getting in front of the jury.

That’s the problem if you don’t survive SYG, the jury, as a matter of course gets to see the weapon. If we assume that most jurors aren’t gun folk, having cute sayings, fancy ceracoat jobs and other mods will never help your cause. You never know and never get to know what a jury uses to make their decision. You hit someone in a stock Toyota versus a 96 Impala SS with hydraulics and flames at the fender wells, guess who gets the better treatment? Accident scene photos always are admitted.

Social media history plays a greater role than ever and can tip the scales against you these days.
I don’t have to be right. All you need to do is point out a single case where the alteration of the looks of the gun made a difference and resulted in a prosecution. Please try not to change the subject.
Show me a case that has been decided.
I am not cussing anyone out. I am pretty sure that you can come up with a case, precedence or statement of law if in fact it ever happened.
Now we are having the same type of disagreement we had over the Rittenhouse actual gun charge. I said the law said what it said and that he legally had it. The charges were dropped on that charge.
Just show us a case. I have asked every lawyer and instructor that has touted this same rhetoric about a gun modification making a difference. Not a single one has been able to post a case.
The only thing that makes a difference is the law.
 

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The video that racer posted was a good discussion. He pointed out now these days prosecutors look at all your Facebook posts and your social media potential braggadocio which can come back to hurt you. It may be a little dated in that it ignores stand your ground hearings and laws therefore somewhat inapplicable in Florida. I disagree with Bob’s assertion that it was “another opinion that is worthless“ the lawyer did seem fairly well qualified and well-versed in addition to being a former prosecutor and defense lawyer.

To keep it simple, let me repeat again that the only time these modifications, fancy paint jobs, cute sayings and things potentially come into play is if it is a questionable shooting. That means your stand your ground hearing in Florida did not exonerate you of criminal and civil liability as the law provides. Then it gets more complicated. If it is a justifiable self defense shooting, things come to a full stop. If you had a Gold plated High Point with the Parthenon frieze engraved on the slide it wouldn’t matter.

Bob, it’s called “precedent” and the only time something like that appears in a reported journal is if the matter is appealed and upheld or rejected. Precedence refers to things like “ the commander’s order takes precedence over the corporal’s feeling” it has no legal connotation. Trial courts are given great discretion in evidential rulings and the reason this sort of thing is not reported is because it’s so simplistic and the judge has such great discretion in matters of this sort. The standard of review is generally “abuse of discretion“ which is a tremendous hurdle to overcome. Most don’t waste time and money even trying.

Now the debate has changed to “where the alteration of the looks of the gun has resulted in a prosecution” ?? Nobody has been talking about that. The OP was about whether decorating your carry firearm with messages and such could be a liability and the answer is “yes it could, just not real likely”
 

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It might be worthwhile to research California cases involving high-capacity magazines (a gun modification in a State that allows only magazine capacities of 10 rounds or fewer).
In California, you have the right to "stand your ground" and protect yourself with retreating under certain circumstances.

We'd need to find a case where "SYG" was set aside and the case proceeded to trial.
Then, scan the trial transcripts for any mention of high-capacity magazines.
 

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Mike, “stand your ground“ would never be set aside because of a magazine capacity violation. It would either be a justifiable shooting or a non-justifiable shooting. In the event the defender was not exonerated in a stand your ground hearing the jury could hear about the magazine. I would imagine that would only be in a circumstance where more than 10 rounds were fired.

Ordinarily any magazine capacity violation would not have any bearing on a murder charge and would be determined too prejudicial to be shown to the jury. If someone had been threatening to kill a guy and they went out and bought a normal capacity magazine on the black market the day before the shooting it might well come in to show motive, intent, plan or preparation, absence of a mistake and a great number of other things under the evidence code.
That’s back to what I discussed above defining materiality and relevance in a case. Speeding tickets are not admissible in civil trials but accident reconstruction/crash and crush damage and speed estimates are if relevant to an issue. It’s a little complicated.

In your case coming up the 28th or 29th, it would not normally be relevant that your neighbor fixed the fence where that POS got through and killed Harley. That’s called the subsequent remedial measures rule and it fosters a policy of encouraging people to fix things without fear of liability. Otherwise merchants would not repair the sidewalk where someone fell for fear it would bite them in the posterior.

Evidence always comes in for a purpose and in your case it will come in to demonstrate that the neighbor knew his POS dog could get through the fence and was a danger. Likewise in DGU cases modifications and adornments might come in to demonstrate the mindset or attitude of the gun owner if relevant. Some of the stickers and mottos on our helicopters in Vietnam come to mind “death from above“ etc.
 

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The video that racer posted was a good discussion. He pointed out now these days prosecutors look at all your Facebook posts and your social media potential braggadocio which can come back to hurt you. It may be a little dated in that it ignores stand your ground hearings and laws therefore somewhat inapplicable in Florida. I disagree with Bob’s assertion that it was “another opinion that is worthless“ the lawyer did seem fairly well qualified and well-versed in addition to being a former prosecutor and defense lawyer.

To keep it simple, let me repeat again that the only time these modifications, fancy paint jobs, cute sayings and things potentially come into play is if it is a questionable shooting. That means your stand your ground hearing in Florida did not exonerate you of criminal and civil liability as the law provides. Then it gets more complicated. If it is a justifiable self defense shooting, things come to a full stop. If you had a Gold plated High Point with the Parthenon frieze engraved on the slide it wouldn’t matter.

Bob, it’s called “precedent” and the only time something like that appears in a reported journal is if the matter is appealed and upheld or rejected. Precedence refers to things like “ the commander’s order takes precedence over the corporal’s feeling” it has no legal connotation. Trial courts are given great discretion in evidential rulings and the reason this sort of thing is not reported is because it’s so simplistic and the judge has such great discretion in matters of this sort. The standard of review is generally “abuse of discretion“ which is a tremendous hurdle to overcome. Most don’t waste time and money even trying.

Now the debate has changed to “where the alteration of the looks of the gun has resulted in a prosecution” ?? Nobody has been talking about that. The OP was about whether decorating your carry firearm with messages and such could be a liability and the answer is “yes it could, just not real likely”
That’s all we have been talking about. The liability is the prosecution. And your statement at the end is the whole point that I make every time this topic comes up. Do not use your gun unless it is under the justifiable use of deadly force. Then the mods on the gun are a minor to no concern at all.
 
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Mike, “stand your ground“ would never be set aside because of a magazine capacity violation. It would either be a justifiable shooting or a non-justifiable shooting. In the event the defender was not exonerated in a stand your ground hearing the jury could hear about the magazine. I would imagine that would only be in a circumstance where more than 10 rounds were fired.

Ordinarily any magazine capacity violation would not have any bearing on a murder charge and would be determined too prejudicial to be shown to the jury. If someone had been threatening to kill a guy and they went out and bought a normal capacity magazine on the black market the day before the shooting it might well come in to show motive, intent, plan or preparation, absence of a mistake and a great number of other things under the evidence code.
That’s back to what I discussed above defining materiality and relevance in a case. Speeding tickets are not admissible in civil trials but accident reconstruction/crash and crush damage and speed estimates are if relevant to an issue. It’s a little complicated.

In your case coming up the 28th or 29th, it would not normally be relevant that your neighbor fixed the fence where that POS got through and killed Harley. That’s called the subsequent remedial measures rule and it fosters a policy of encouraging people to fix things without fear of liability. Otherwise merchants would not repair the sidewalk where someone fell for fear it would bite them in the posterior.

Evidence always comes in for a purpose and in your case it will come in to demonstrate that the neighbor knew his POS dog could get through the fence and was a danger. Likewise in DGU cases modifications and adornments might come in to demonstrate the mindset or attitude of the gun owner if relevant. Some of the stickers and mottos on our helicopters in Vietnam come to mind “death from above“ etc.
A temporary diversion from the OP topic, in my small claims case (dog-on-dog attack), I am starting to think that it might be a very quick trial. (?)
The crux of the case is the "neighbor's" strict liability (by statute).

Judge (to defendant): "Did your dog kill Harley?"
A-Hole "Neighbor": "Yes, your Honor.... but there's this fence separating the properties..."

Judge cuts him off. "Mike, let's see your receipts."

I'll make a separate post with the judgement after the trial.
Then again, the Judge may entertain all kinds of "evidence", but at the end of the day the "neighbor" is still liable by statute.
Maybe the Judge will feel an obligation to assist the two neighbors in "getting along" after the trial is over, by letting everyone say their peace (even if it doesn't change the outcome).

--which "getting along" after-the-fact I have zero interest in, BTW --
The "neighbor" is an asshole.

Or, the Judge might just want to go home early.
Judgement Plaintiff !!
 

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Now you all got me ordering parts for my Carry Glock
 

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That’s all we have been talking about. The liability is the prosecution. And your statement at the end is the whole point that I make every time this topic comes up. Do not use your gun unless it is under the justifiable use of deadly force. Then the mods on the gun are a minor to no concern at all.
Bob, I didn’t read it that way. Racer is pretty smart and if he had intended to ask if decorating a carry pistol with the images etc. could get you prosecuted, he’s sharp and precise enough to have said just that. Re-reading his post, I think his intention and expression was very clear.
 

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Bob, I didn’t read it that way. Racer is pretty smart and if he had intended to ask if decorating a carry pistol with the images etc. could get you prosecuted, he’s sharp and precise enough to have said just that. Re-reading his post, I think his intention and expression was very clear.
Not sure what this means.
 

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No problem, it seemed to me you were suggesting that racer really meant “prosecution“ when he said “liability” which was somehow synonymous with being prosecuted. I was just pointing out that he is usually very clear in what he says and if he meant that, likely he would’ve said that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #79 ·
I'm sure a zealous prosecutor would characterize a "Hello Kitty" themed gun as a crass and cavalier disregard for the serious nature of firearms. You can't win for losin'. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
 
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