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Agree with racer here. It's not a small distinction at all, and the Founding Fathers were insistent that the Bill of Rights were not granted by the Constitution, they were inherent rights protected by it. That's why they initially didn't think it necessary to spell them out.
 

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Agree with racer here. It's not a small distinction at all, and the Founding Fathers were insistent that the Bill of Rights were not granted by the Constitution, they were inherent rights protected by it. That's why they initially didn't think it necessary to spell them out.
You may well be correct. However the bottom line is we have those rights and we have to fight (if needed) to preserve them. By those rights,I mean all rights enumerated in the constitution.
 

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You may well be correct. However the bottom line is we have those rights and we have to fight (if needed) to preserve them. By those rights,I mean all rights enumerated in the constitution.
You do realize that the people we would be "fighting" are the same people you vote for right?
 

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YES By fighting,I did not mean in the violent sense.
I know you didn't mean with violence. The FACT is that we wouldn't have to "fight" for our rights at all if it weren't for voters like you who put gun grabbers in power. Why arm your opponents before fighting them? Without the political power you want to give them they'd be nothing but a bunch of crybabies.

People in places like NY, NJ, Maryland, California etc... are fighting for their rights because of voters like you.

We ALL came close to fighting a radically Left SCOTUS after 2016 because of voters like you.

How the Hell is giving power to gun grabbers "fighting for our rights"? You may enjoy our rights but you fight AGAINST them in every election.
 

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He has a point, you know
 

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I know you didn't mean with violence. The FACT is that we wouldn't have to "fight" for our rights at all if it weren't for voters like you who put gun grabbers in power. Why arm your opponents before fighting them? Without the political power you want to give them they'd be nothing but a bunch of crybabies.

People in places like NY, NJ, Maryland, California etc... are fighting for their rights because of voters like you.

We ALL came close to fighting a radically Left SCOTUS after 2016 because of voters like you.

How the Hell is giving power to gun grabbers "fighting for our rights"? You may enjoy our rights but you fight AGAINST them in every election.
I am not a one issue voter. I think a lot of other areas need changing by the dems and in total they are more important than guns alone.
I think that many overestimate the amount of damage "gun grabbers' will do.
If they simply strengthen back round checks,I would be happy. Not to add anything more partisan, but I feel the dems will have enough to keep them busy undoing DJT's actions.fighting Covid,repairing our foreign relations, rebuilding the economy.
This all assumes Dems have all 3 branches.
FWIW;during the terms of BHO,the largest gun law/rule/ change was the easing of some rules re Type 3 applications by ATF.
The future will prove me wrong or right.
 

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we all try to advocate for the Second Amendment no doubt. Sometimes demonizing people doesn’t work, it’s what they expect.

I found an approach that has worked with folks who will listen. I first ask them if they are the type of person that will listen to the other side of an argument or if they are unwilling to possibly learn. That’s a loaded question but folks give me the opportunity to speak with them.

I then talk about 10 round magazine limitations. I start by getting them to agree that a trained police officer in exchange of gun fire is almost always working/on duty and has been awake (contrary to some I have worked with) the majority of the shift. I then explain that the national average for rounds fired versus hits in trained police officers is somewhere in the range of 25%. That means that in a 10 round magazine a police officer has 2.5 chances of striking a perpetrator. Then I go forward and describe that yourself as a homeowner, if awakened in the middle of the night to a home invasion, you would be disoriented etc. they usually agree.

I’ve then pose to them if two people came in to the house then to rob/rape/kill if the homeowner did half as well as an alert trained police officer you might have one chance out of ten to hit one of the bad guys. Then my question becomes what do you feel you owe your family a one in 10 chance of hitting one of two home invaders or burglars dictated by the government or more choice dictated by yourself? Do you feel you have a right to defend your family in a way you decide or do you feel more comfortable with having the government tell you what to do?

If they say “I’ll hide and call the police“ and then the response to that is pretty easy. How are you going to keep the bad guys occupied for the five minute response time? Perhaps challenge them to a quick game of Scrabble?
That's a great response and I'll definitely keep it in mind. The one issue is that unfortunately I live in an area which is a hotbed of people who think big government is a good thing. You're fighting from a severe disadvantage since you're dealing with non-Americans from New York City who think they can come down here and trample all that we've worked hard to build. But, I still think (maybe less crass than I presented it as) we need to push the marketing angle a little bit, and demonize supporting gun control and progressive policies. Appeal to people's inherent sense of pride, etc. No one likes to be thought of as a parasite, and gun control is basically symptomatic of what parasites do.

But, we have to work on the marketing a little and not use the lines from some guy doing blog posts to get people ornery enough to click on a link to buy something. :ROFLMAO:
 

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That's a great response and I'll definitely keep it in mind. The one issue is that unfortunately I live in an area which is a hotbed of people who think big government is a good thing. You're fighting from a severe disadvantage since you're dealing with non-Americans from New York City who think they can come down here and trample all that we've worked hard to build. But, I still think (maybe less crass than I presented it as) we need to push the marketing angle a little bit, and demonize supporting gun control and progressive policies. Appeal to people's inherent sense of pride, etc. No one likes to be thought of as a parasite, and gun control is basically symptomatic of what parasites do.

But, we have to work on the marketing a little and not use the lines from some guy doing blog posts to get people ornery enough to click on a link to buy something. :ROFLMAO:
A common mistake..Libs don't think "BIG" gov't is good,they simply want a gov't which provides more protections for it's citizens. That does take more gov't.

Are you saying that people from NYC are not American????:LOL:
Just askin' because this born and raised New Yowker served 4.5 years as an Air Force officer.
 

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A common mistake..Libs don't think "BIG" gov't is good,they simply want a gov't which provides more protections for it's citizens. That does take more gov't.

Are you saying that people from NYC are not American????:LOL:
Just askin' because this born and raised New Yowker served 4.5 years as an Air Force officer.
Protections against what Fish? Having their businesses burned? Seeing their police officers assaulted and murdered? Protections against being violently assaulted for wearing a red hat? Protections against marauders who invade and occupy entire sections of their cities? Yeah, The Dems are doing a great job of protecting the citizens in the cities they control. Or maybe you only consider the violent thugs as citizens. In that case they're doing great.
 

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A common mistake..Libs don't think "BIG" gov't is good,they simply want a gov't which provides more protections for it's citizens. That does take more gov't.

Are you saying that people from NYC are not American????:LOL:
Just askin' because this born and raised New Yowker served 4.5 years as an Air Force officer.
Depends on when you lived there. You're older than I am so you get a pass I guess. I left in 1996.

Nowadays, forget about it! Will the last American to leave NYC please turn out the lights :ROFLMAO: - and for the love of god, if you leave NYC - don't bring your rotten politics and hideous personal beliefs with you. Thankfully I was raised by a sane father and mother and not some garbage-eating VD-infested progressives, so I didn't have bad politics to bring to Florida. Leave them in NYC.

And as for the big government thing - Derrick1971 said what I was gonna say. I don't drink but I'll buy him a beer anytime.
 

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Depends on when you lived there. You're older than I am so you get a pass I guess. I left in 1996.

Nowadays, forget about it! Will the last American to leave NYC please turn out the lights :ROFLMAO: - and for the love of god, if you leave NYC - don't bring your rotten politics and hideous personal beliefs with you. Thankfully I was raised by a sane father and mother and not some garbage-eating VD-infested progressives, so I didn't have bad politics to bring to Florida. Leave them in NYC.

And as for the big government thing - Derrick1971 said what I was gonna say. I don't drink but I'll buy him a beer anytime.
That's just it. The Dems can't win on ideas so they just destroy. They've destroyed the economy in most of the areas they control so people will flee to Conservative states and bring their garbage ideas with them. It's the only way socialism can spread because nobody here would look to these areas and try to copy what they've done. I guess the economic destruction wasn't moving people fast enough so they've switched to physical destruction and violence to speed it up. The genius of it is that they've managed to place the blame it on Trump even though it's Libs who have been in charge of those areas for decades. They set themselves up for destruction then blame us. It's sick but it's a good plan. Especially when most of them are too dumb to see it and just mindlessly go with it.

Just watch how fast people flee the dangerous Lib states now and come here. I really do worry about parts of this state turning into the next Seattle, SF, or Baltimore.

I just don't get why Libs want to move here and try to destroy our state when they have lots of places they've already destroyed. Why suffer under our freedoms when they can easily have their rights violated up north or on the West coast? It makes no sense. Where are they going to go when there are no more conservative states?
 

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That's just it. The Dems can't win on ideas so they just destroy. They've destroyed the economy in most of the areas they control so people will flee to Conservative states and bring their garbage ideas with them. It's the only way socialism can spread because nobody here would look to these areas and try to copy what they've done. I guess the economic destruction wasn't moving people fast enough so they've switched to physical destruction and violence to speed it up. The genius of it is that they've managed to place the blame it on Trump even though it's Libs who have been in charge of those areas for decades. They set themselves up for destruction then blame us. It's sick but it's a good plan. Especially when most of them are too dumb to see it and just mindlessly go with it.

Just watch how fast people flee the dangerous Lib states now and come here. I really do worry about parts of this state turning into the next Seattle, SF, or Baltimore.

I just don't get why Libs want to move here and try to destroy our state when they have lots of places they've already destroyed. Why suffer under our freedoms when they can easily have their rights violated up north or on the West coast? It makes no sense. Where are they going to go when there are no more conservative states?
The motivations initially are usually economic and aesthetic. Truth be told, the cities up there are ugly, old, and rotten. And they don't want to move to the burbs or rural areas of the same state since they'll still get ****ed by taxes.

So they come down here with their hedge fund or developer monies with dollars in their eyes since they figure they're gonna make bank since there's no state or local income taxes, and property taxes are usually low as well. But then they run into things like people carrying guns, non-progressive opinions, etc. So then they get fidgety and start electing Democrats and other progressive liberal trash and the wagon quickly gets away from them, since the politicians of that stripe don't stop at just one thing - they bring the whole ridiculous VD-infested, kid-sniffing, crack-smoking apparatus into play.

Look at who the Florida Dems fielded the last go-around. The guy was a drug-abusing, adulterous, lying deviant who was found puking and shitting himself in a South Beach sex party. Say what you will about DeSantis, but at least in his personal conduct he's been a man of good character.

I'm far from a saint, but miss me with that "liberal" crap - progressive filth need to stay the hell out of Florida.
 

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Protections against what Fish? Having their businesses burned? Seeing their police officers assaulted and murdered? Protections against being violently assaulted for wearing a red hat? Protections against marauders who invade and occupy entire sections of their cities? Yeah, The Dems are doing a great job of protecting the citizens in the cities they control. Or maybe you only consider the violent thugs as citizens. In that case they're doing great.
Protections against death due to no easily available healthcare, against going to prison for a minor crime because of the melanin in your skin, against losing ones right to vote because of voter suppresion schemes based on phony voter fraud reports.
 

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Depends on when you lived there. You're older than I am so you get a pass I guess. I left in 1996.

Nowadays, forget about it! Will the last American to leave NYC please turn out the lights :ROFLMAO: - and for the love of god, if you leave NYC - don't bring your rotten politics and hideous personal beliefs with you. Thankfully I was raised by a sane father and mother and not some garbage-eating VD-infested progressives, so I didn't have bad politics to bring to Florida. Leave them in NYC.

And as for the big government thing - Derrick1971 said what I was gonna say. I don't drink but I'll buy him a beer anytime.
So all liberals eat garbage and have syphilis????
Wipe your lips,the foam is showing.
 

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So all liberals eat garbage and have syphilis????
Pho, garbage - it looks remarkably similar. And I'm not gonna mince words about the rampant STDs in most liberal enclaves.

You can't come in here and piss on our leg and tell us it's raining and not expect blowback. It doesn't work that way. Nosy government BS isn't something to be celebrated.
 

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Protections against death due to no easily available healthcare, against going to prison for a minor crime because of the melanin in your skin, against losing ones right to vote because of voter suppresion schemes based on phony voter fraud reports.
Wow, so you're okay with the murder, destruction of property and violent political intimidation as long as they tell you you're getting something free. Just WOW! I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye. At least I hope I never fall that far.

A healthcare bill that nobody read because it was thousands of pages of garbage? I had to go on Obamacare and had to get off after my premiums nearly doubled. It was a worthless plan with sky high deductibles so don't tell me those lies.

Prison for melanin? Turn on the news once in a while Fish. Trump passed a major reform bill that released a lot of black people locked up for long drug sentences after the crime bill Biden was partially responsible for. Where were Biden and Obama for the 8 years they were in power? TRUMP fixed their mess! Again, PURE LIES from you!

What voter suppression? Like the Black Panther outside a polling place with a billy club that Eric Holder refused to prosecute because he was "one of his people"? Yes, his actual racist words. Look it up and stop being ignorant. Who's going to stop BLM and ANTIFA from rioting outside polling places and intimidating voters this year? There's ZERO doubt that that's going to happen. It won't be conservatives intimidating voters. It'll be DEMOCRATS just like it has been for generations now.

Seriously, WHAT VOTER SUPPRESSION? Give an example of someone being turned away due to the color of their skin! It's a lie you only believe because it's told over and over again.

You really want to see equality? Get everyone working like Trump was doing before Biden's friends, the Chinese, tossed this virus our way. Which, by the way, Biden tried to make worse by calling Trump a RACIST for blocking travel from hot countries. A move that, by all accounts, saved countless lives. Even Biden finally had to admit he was wrong. This is the guy who's going to fix the Covid problem better than Trump? The guy who wanted MORE Covid carriers flooding the country!

Seriously Fish, you're smarter than this. Turn on some real news and see what's actually happening in this country. It's despicable the way you're being lied to but eventually it falls on you to open your eyes and recognize it.
 

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A healthcare bill that nobody read because it was thousands of pages of garbage? I had to go on Obamacare and had to get off after my premiums nearly doubled. It was a worthless plan with sky high deductibles so don't tell me those lies.
Lost our medical coverage due to Obamacare. Our long-standing "grandfathered" policy... canceled. Right before my daughter was diagnosed with leukemia. Have been uninsured ever since. The new premium would be more than our mortgage. If I could afford 2 mortgages, I'd have two ****ing houses.

Yep... for the first time ever in my life... uninsured for medical. Still waiting for Obamacare to go away and re-open the competition for business with medical insurance companies. I'm not holding my breath.
 

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Pho, garbage - it looks remarkably similar. And I'm not gonna mince words about the rampant STDs in most liberal enclaves.

You can't come in here and piss on our leg and tell us it's raining and not expect blowback. It doesn't work that way. Nosy government BS isn't something to be celebrated.
Pho ??????
 

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Pho ??????
Good job Fish. That may be the most honest and intelligent thing you've added to this thread.

Back to the original topic about the death of gun control.

There does seem to be a shift in the desire for gun control and big government in the CHOP zone of Seattle.

MORE shootings, including one death, last night in Seattle's CHOP zone so the new Dem blueprint doesn't seem to be very anti-gun. The cops and medical never reached the scene due to a violent mob so they're clearly no longer for more government either.

Shootings in large Dem cities have increased HUNDREDS of times over the same time last year so gun USE seems to be the order of the day for Democrats now.

It's interesting since these people seem to be calling the shots for the Dem party now. The governor is doing NOTHING. The mayor is showing approval and at least one city council member is calling for the occupation to continue. When these people scream the Dem leaders jump with ZERO consideration for the people who own businesses, work jobs or call that area home.

If Democrat voters are successful in spreading this across the country we WILL be looking at more gun usage and less government. Or is it MORE government since any group of Dems can instantly become the government through a few violent acts and a lot of shouting? When the cops are gone the criminals effectively BECOME the government. It's all very confusing.
 
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