[bones]

I have not searched this. So it maybe on this site somewhere? Not sure if in correct forum either?

What type of rounds do you keep in chamber FIRST? Like hollow point, FMJ, +p, etc... I have several friends say put in FMJ first shot at least. Have several say JHP are great.
The 1st friend had reason. He said "maybe" you might have to shoot through something 1st? Like a car windshield, or door. (he was in military). He said hollow point wouldn't be sufficient.
2nd said Hollow point would put them down quicker. They would slow down their attack on you.

I can see both points. Never had to fire in ANY case yet. In a way, I hope I never have to...but...there is ALWAYS crime/chance. I have have a weapon drawn on me before. NOT a good feeling. (This was a LONG time ago).
The FMJ will typically go farter. The hollow point would stop sooner?
By the way. I carry a 9 Mil. Looking for a 380 for backup/additional.

 

[T.S.]

I have not searched this. So it maybe on this site somewhere? Not sure if in correct forum either?

What type of rounds do you keep in chamber FIRST? Like hollow point, FMJ, +p, etc... I have several friends say put in FMJ first shot at least. Have several say JHP are great.
The 1st friend had reason. He said "maybe" you might have to shoot through something 1st? Like a car windshield, or door. (he was in military). He said hollow point wouldn't be sufficient.
2nd said Hollow point would put them down quicker. They would slow down their attack on you.

I can see both points. Never had to fire in ANY case yet. In a way, I hope I never have to...but...there is ALWAYS crime/chance. I have have a weapon drawn on me before. NOT a good feeling. (This was a LONG time ago).
The FMJ will typically go farter. The hollow point would stop sooner?
By the way. I carry a 9 Mil. Looking for a 380 for backup/additional.

In my .45acp I carry only Federal Hydra-Shok 230 grain Jacketed Hollow Points. I find no need to mix and match my ammo. The 9 mm may have a problem, but the .45acp hollow point has enough power to handle a car windshield or a car door.

In my Home Defense Shotgun, the first 6 are 00 Buck, and the last 2 are slugs. I figure if the first 6 00 bucks don't do the job, it is time to start slinging slugs at the BG.

 

[brownie]

TS,

During hostage rescue from vehicles in 1994, no 9, 40 or 45 street load made it through the windshields reliably, many didn't make it through the side glass without serious deflection unless the muzzle was pressed up onto the glass.

The same rounds from cops duty guns using duty loads into vehicles showed most jackets separated in the doors, and about 20% of HP's in all calibers barely made it into the interior on cardboard threats. Those that made it through were deemed not of sufficient force to cause major injury to the driver most of the time and for the most part, it was just fragments that peppered the threats inside.

Ball ammo in both 9, 40 and 45 made it through the doors with enough force kill the occupant in that seat and the 9 ball made it through into the other door and almost out the other side.

I'm sure the Speer Gold dot bonded core and Win Ranger bonded bulllets would not lose their jackets and may make it into the interior with enough force to kill today but the non bonded core bullets just didn't cut it in testing back then.

I've also put 45 ball though both sides of a van at a distance of 40 yrds at an angle of about 30 degrees with utter reliability 80-90% of the time but didn't have a chance to try the glass at that time which I'd assume would not enter the vehicle at that angle.

What really surprised us was that 230 ball rnl made it through glass at very acute angles as well as the car/van bodies and it was determined the rnl was so much better because the lead deformed enough to allow the momentum to continue into the vehicle and not glance off like the jacketed bullets.

I wouldn't trust any HP jacketed bullet of any caliber to get into the interior with sufficient mass or force to kill or stop a threat from our testing unless it was a bonded core bullet design, especially when the round is fired from an angle much less than 50 degrees to hard target.

After the results of the rnl 230 ball testing I carried a mag or two of that load [ my own loading ] for many EP assignments due to the possibility of having to shoot into hard targets while extricating the principle off the streets.

 

[bones]

With all that being said Brownie.
I have another friend that said he shot through a windshield of a moving car(towards him), he hit the driver and injured the guy in the back seat. I think he said he was carrying a 45 auto. What type of ammo could do that? I am not saying he is lying, but since you put it in terms? This was 3-4 years ago. He might have been lying?
Me and a friend of mine happened on some armor piercing bullets for an (I think SKS, may have been an AK?) They almost went through a 12" (ACROSS) tree. They was buldging out the backside. We have shot SKS, AK, AR15, etc.. weapons over the years. I can't tell you how many different ammo we have tried. Mainly on trees lol.

 

[brownie]

With all that being said Brownie.
I have another friend that said he shot through a windshield of a moving car(towards him), he hit the driver and injured the guy in the back seat. I think he said he was carrying a 45 auto. What type of ammo could do that? I am not saying he is lying, but since you put it in terms? This was 3-4 years ago. He might have been lying?
Me and a friend of mine happened on some armor piercing bullets for an (I think SKS, may have been an AK?) They almost went through a 12" (ACROSS) tree. They was buldging out the backside. We have shot SKS, AK, AR15, etc.. weapons over the years. I can't tell you how many different ammo we have tried. Mainly on trees lol.

Noting that I stated "no 9, 40 or 45 street load made it through the windshields reliably", it's quite possible your friend experienced that which he told you with any load [ your post mentioned you were not sure what caliber he was using ]. No mention of the load he was using in your post so I can't respond intelligently without just guessing what load he used to make that shot.

I've also heard people say at one time or another that a 45acp load will knock a person down, will throw them backwards so many feet, will take a hand off if hit in a finger, will take a shoulder off if it in the shoulder, and god knows how many other exaggerations about the 45acp loads that are just not truthful.

Armour piercing rifle ammo will see major differences in hard targets than pistol rounds of any caliber. I've put 7.62x39 Keng's steel core ammo through hardened steel plate like it was butter, along with some 45acp armor piercing through a steel car bumper with ease, but armor piercing pistol ammo is not your normal SD street loading anyone is going to likely be carrying. In short, I've tested many different loads of various calibers in all kinds of medium/hard targets and have a fairly good idea of what is actually possible based on first hand experience not internet myth. As I mentioned previously, IF I had an idea I might have to push bullets through hard targets, the non jacketed rounds [ full lead ] are more reliable at passing through hard targets as well as staying on course with less deviation or deflection through those targets.

In fact, the lowly 22lr is more apt to defeat a BPV than a 9, 40 or 45 handgun bullet due to their velocity and reduced frontal area. Who'd imagine that without actually testing loads of various flavors? There are too many variables in this subject to recommend any one caliber, weight, or head design as more effective than another on various hard targets to include the angle of the windshield glass based on make and model; imperfections in the glass itself where it's hit to include small inclusions from older glass that's been exposed longer to scratching/pitting from sand, etc kicked up from other cars; the exact angle the bullets hits the glass/hard target, and other variables.

Trees are not considered hard targets for the most part, they are normally considered cover and concealment [ if large enough ].

Thanks for sharing your experiences with the trees and rifle ammo.

 

[T.S.]

TS,

During hostage rescue from vehicles in 1994, no 9, 40 or 45 street load made it through the windshields reliably, many didn't make it through the side glass without serious deflection unless the muzzle was pressed up onto the glass.

Brownie,

I have never had that problem with either auto windshields or auto doors. In the past I have had many an opportunity to " perforate " auto doors and auto windshelds on wrecked junk cars. They have always penetrated completely through both.

I'll put it this way, I would not want to be sitting behind the wheel of a car and have someone fire at me through the windshield or the door with a .45 acp jacketed hollow point.

 

[brownie]

Brownie,

I have never had that problem with either auto windshields or auto doors. In the past I have had many an opportunity to " perforate " auto doors and auto windshelds on wrecked junk cars. They have always penetrated completely through both.

I'll put it this way, I would not want to be sitting behind the wheel of a car and have someone fire at me through the windshield or the door with a .45 acp jacketed hollow point.

Me either, that would be a very bad day. Did your tests include windows up as well as windows down? Did you find that when the rounds struck the interior window motors, structural struts inside the doors, door handles etc that the loads didn't perform as well relative penetration or that rounds fragmented considerably while passing through same leading to a less than full weight projectile entering when they did enter?

Did you test various angles to determine reliability of penetration on the doors? If so, were your results different based on the various angles of entry, deflection differences etc? We've found the angle of potential entry gives different results than a near perfect 90 degrees shot on the doors as well which directly affects the reliability of full entry into the interiors.

 

[T.S.]

Did you test various angles to determine reliability of penetration on the doors? If so, were your results different based on the various angles of entry, deflection differences etc?

Nope, I just shot the D: censoredmn windshield and doors from different directions and locations to see if the bullet made penetration or not.

Maybe I was just shooting at " old " glass at the time ....

One of the reasons I did so was because I had someone with me who advised that in a shootout they would take cover behind the car door. I told them that I didn't think they would want to do that .... and I was right.

The .45 acp JHP's went right through the door, and opened my friends eyes up. I told him if he was going to use the car as cover, that the only thing I would recommend was to put the engine block compartment in between him and the BG if possible.

 

[brownie]

Nope, I just shot the D: censoredmn windshield and doors from different directions and locations to see if the bullet made penetration or not.

Maybe I was just shooting at " old " glass at the time ....

One of the reasons I did so was because I had someone with me who advised that in a shootout they would take cover behind the car door. I told them that I didn't think they would want to do that .... and I was right.

The .45 acp JHP's went right through the door, and opened my friends eyes up. I told him if he was going to use the car as cover, that the only thing I would recommend was to put the engine block compartment in between him and the BG if possible.

We were instructed to keep the wheels between us and incoming when bailing with a principle [ usually the rear wheels as the principle and one of us bailed with him out a door on the opposite side of incoming, but the engine block would work well also :thumsup

 

[MattB.]

Speaking of penetration has anyone fired the FN 5.7 yet? The local store has one for sale $2200
It is supposed to be able to penetrate anything on the market and is lighter then the 9mm round.

 

[brownie]

Speaking of penetration has anyone fired the FN 5.7 yet? The local store has one for sale $2200
It is supposed to be able to penetrate anything on the market and is lighter then the 9mm round.

View attachment 1132

2200.00? That's far too much for that pistol. We sell the new combat sighted models at the shop for 1200.00 out here and he's still making a profit. GunsAmerica has several older high sighted models presently from 900-1000.00

Have two of them, the older model with the huge front and rear sights [ The one in your attachment is the early model ] and the new model just released with the combat sights that are better suited to actually carrying that pistol on your person in a holster.

The initial round [ ss190 and later the ss192 ] was developed to penetrate military body armor on the battlefield in a bullpup design called the P90, and was very good at that. It's been restricted from import for quite some time here in the US.

There are ballistic blue tip [ ss196sr ] and HP's [ ss192hp ] available in the states for it presently. In the pistol the cartridge sends a 28 grain bullet about 1700 fps downrange. It hits my steel plates very hard.

As to being even a fair SD cartridge in the pistol, I prefer not to consider it, though some people carry it as seen in posts in the FN forum. Two employees at the shop who hunt carry these pistols with them in the event they get a shot at a coyote or two. Anything smaller than 60 pounds is going to have a bad day if hit with the 5.7. I've seen two yotes they've brought in with hits that didn't ruin the pelts [ they are also predator callers ] at all, which is why they like that pistol for the most part.

They come standard with two 20 rd mags, and there are 10 rd extensions that replace the base plate that give you 30 rds on tap. I've got at least 5 30's around here somewhere for mine. Light recoiling cartridge, very accurate to distances of 40-50 meters in the pistols. Had one guy take my one day private Integrated Threat Focused Training Systems course with his along with a Glock 357Sig.

2200.00 for this pistol? Someone's smoking crack at that price.

 

[Mac45]

A similar question was asked a little while ago and some of the answers may help.

http://floridaconcealedcarry.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=3932

What Brownie said concern penetration of auto bodies and windshield and side glass is true. I have to disagree with the implied assessment that ball ammo is automatically a better penetrator than jhp ammo of the same caliber. On laminated glass, very often the angle is critical. A shot angle of greater than 45 degrees, from the perpendicular, can often cause a round, any round to literally bounce off. At angles less than that, virtually all rounds will penetrate and do so with sufficient energy to seriously wound those on the other side. Round deflection by auto windshields is extreme, sometimes resulting in impact at up to three feet from point of aim as little as two feet beyond the windshield.

In auto doors, the results are mixed. Most jhp rounds function the same as fmj ball ammo when penetrating hard materials such as steel and glass. That is to say that expansion usually does not occur and the rounds show similar deformation to hardball, though some of the more frangible exhibit case separation on exit from the door, as well as keyholing with some rounds. The problem with shooting doors is the presence of interior metal struts, window frames [and window glass, if the window is rolled down] window motors, operating rods, and fastening points. Any of these can seriously deflect or even stop a handgun round.

While all of this is interesting, it is almost moot, from a tactical perspective. The truth of the matter is that you will very likely never be shooting through vehicle window glass or the door of an automobile unless you are inside, shooting out. If your assailant can shoot at you from inside a vehicle without penetrating the glass or door, then the vehicle that they are in is likely armored and your little popgun is going to be pretty much useless. It is time to duck and hide. Tactically, you are much more likely to engage a soft target, another human being, at close range with a defensive handgun. In that case every round should be capable of giving you maximum stopping power and that means hollowpoint ammunition, especially for 9mm and even 40S&W. If you find yourself engaging a target inside an automobile, multiple shots should take care of the problem. And, as a general rule of thumb, it is inadvisable to shoot moving vehicles. You can't stop them with a handgun and if you incapacitate the driver you have an unguided 3500 lb projectile traveling at 30mph with 154000 ft/lbs of energy. Personally, I see no reason to load hardball unless you have nothing else. If you are going out hunting the wild American buck Lincoln, then take a spare magazine loaded with armor piercing rounds.

 

[brownie]

A similar question was asked a little while ago and some of the answers may help.

http://floridaconcealedcarry.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=3932

What Brownie said concern penetration of auto bodies and windshield and side glass is true. I have to disagree with the implied assessment that ball ammo is automatically a better penetrator than jhp ammo of the same caliber. On laminated glass, very often the angle is critical. A shot angle of greater than 45 degrees, from the perpendicular, can often cause a round, any round to literally bounce off. At angles less than that, virtually all rounds will penetrate and do so with sufficient energy to seriously wound those on the other side. Round deflection by auto windshields is extreme, sometimes resulting in impact at up to three feet from point of aim as little as two feet beyond the windshield.

In auto doors, the results are mixed. Most jhp rounds function the same as fmj ball ammo when penetrating hard materials such as steel and glass. That is to say that expansion usually does not occur and the rounds show similar deformation to hardball, though some of the more frangible exhibit case separation on exit from the door, as well as keyholing with some rounds. The problem with shooting doors is the presence of interior metal struts, window frames [and window glass, if the window is rolled down] window motors, operating rods, and fastening points. Any of these can seriously deflect or even stop a handgun round.

While all of this is interesting, it is almost moot, from a tactical perspective. The truth of the matter is that you will very likely never be shooting through vehicle window glass or the door of an automobile unless you are inside, shooting out. If your assailant can shoot at you from inside a vehicle without penetrating the glass or door, then the vehicle that they are in is likely armored and your little popgun is going to be pretty much useless. It is time to duck and hide. Tactically, you are much more likely to engage a soft target, another human being, at close range with a defensive handgun. In that case every round should be capable of giving you maximum stopping power and that means hollowpoint ammunition, especially for 9mm and even 40S&W. If you find yourself engaging a target inside an automobile, multiple shots should take care of the problem. And, as a general rule of thumb, it is inadvisable to shoot moving vehicles. You can't stop them with a handgun and if you incapacitate the driver you have an unguided 3500 lb projectile traveling at 30mph with 154000 ft/lbs of energy. Personally, I see no reason to load hardball unless you have nothing else. If you are going out hunting the wild American buck Lincoln, then take a spare magazine loaded with armor piercing rounds.

Mac,

I didn't mean to suggest ball was a better penetrator than JHP at acute angles, I should have been spcific. Ball was a better penetrator than JHP at near 90 degrees in the testing, but I also should have metioned at the same time that ball at about above 50 degrees has a better chance of deflecting that JHP. It was late when I posted and I'd worked all day so I wasn't as clear as I could have been, my apologies to everyone for that.

Lead round nose ball, semi wad cutters and wad cutters in the case of 38/357 was by far the best at getting into the vehicle in every caliber we tested even at very acute angles.

Our findings that interior metal struts, window frames [and window glass, if the window is rolled down] window motors, operating rods, and fastening points were effective in stopping/deflecting or sheering the loads as you suggest as well. There's a lot of "stuff" inside that door that upsets any reliability of penetration from the common SD loads, HP's or ball [ but ball was deflected and usually made it inside.

Again, if I knew I might have to shoot through hard targets, a fully exposed lead bullet would be my go to carry load based on the testing results in about every handgun caliber.

Sorry for any confusion in the previous posts.

 

[SGB]

I carry only JHP ammunition.

 

[Mac45]

Brownie,

I agree, sir. It is a good to have some idea how a fired round will perform when fired against a given material or target. Most people do not have the opportunity to testfire various rounds to determine that. I try to discourage hardball carry, especially 9mm and 40s&w, as ball ammo is distinctly inferior to hollowpoint, in general, as a manstopper and shooting cars in not a high priority in defensive handgun encounters. Personally, if I had a firm idea that I would be engaging vehicles, I would carry either a rifle or a shotgun. I might just alternate slug and shot rounds for the shottie. Of course your SOCOM16 would be just about perfect for hunting cars. The only problem is mounting them on the wall of your den once you bag them.

 

[brownie]

Brownie,

I agree, sir. It is a good to have some idea how a fired round will perform when fired against a given material or target. Most people do not have the opportunity to testfire various rounds to determine that. I try to discourage hardball carry, especially 9mm and 40s&w, as ball ammo is distinctly inferior to hollowpoint, in general, as a manstopper and shooting cars in not a high priority in defensive handgun encounters. Personally, if I had a firm idea that I would be engaging vehicles, I would carry either a rifle or a shotgun. I might just alternate slug and shot rounds for the shottie. Of course your SOCOM16 would be just about perfect for hunting cars. The only problem is mounting them on the wall of your den once you bag them.

:thumsup

your SOCOM16 would be just about perfect for hunting cars. The only problem is mounting them on the wall of your den once you bag them

 

[deadeyedick]

While all of this is interesting, it is almost moot, from a tactical perspective. The truth of the matter is that you will very likely never be shooting through vehicle window glass or the door of an automobile unless you are inside, shooting out. If your assailant can shoot at you from inside a vehicle without penetrating the glass or door, then the vehicle that they are in is likely armored and your little popgun is going to be pretty much useless. It is time to duck and hide. Tactically, you are much more likely to engage a soft target, another human being, at close range with a defensive handgun. In that case every round should be capable of giving you maximum stopping power and that means hollowpoint ammunition, especially for 9mm and even 40S&W. If you find yourself engaging a target inside an automobile, multiple shots should take care of the problem. And, as a general rule of thumb, it is inadvisable to shoot moving vehicles. You can't stop them with a handgun and if you incapacitate the driver you have an unguided 3500 lb projectile traveling at 30mph with 154000 ft/lbs of energy. Personally, I see no reason to load hardball unless you have nothing else. If you are going out hunting the wild American buck Lincoln, then take a spare magazine loaded with armor piercing rounds.

Exactamundo. :thumsup