Lose your job....
I just started a new job today, have questions
I know this has been asked before but in the employee handbook I had to sign to start the job it says this:
"The following are examples of activities which will result in discipline actions up to and including immediate discharge.
Bringing firearms or other dangerous weapons onto company property (including company parking lot)."
Facts:
I worked at this job before I left for basic it was owned by another guy and they reopened under a new name to avoid debt. I actually have a semi personal/professional relationship with the new owner.
I personally know the sole owner of both the parking lot and the building this company rents.
The employee handbook also states that I am subject to search upon entering the workshop/building. It also states that my vehicle is subject to search.
Is my vehicle not my 'personal conveyance' and wouldn't that require a LEO with probable cause?
Building location is in the heart of the ghetto. We have been robbed many times. I even watched two people fire at each other from opposite sides of the road at 5:15PM when I turned out of this parking lot on my way home(the exact reason I am on these forums). You can understand my concern. If I decide to carry and get caught what happens, I lose my job, or do I go to jail?
"The following are examples of activities which will result in discipline actions up to and including immediate discharge.
Bringing firearms or other dangerous weapons onto company property (including company parking lot)."
Facts:
I worked at this job before I left for basic it was owned by another guy and they reopened under a new name to avoid debt. I actually have a semi personal/professional relationship with the new owner.
I personally know the sole owner of both the parking lot and the building this company rents.
The employee handbook also states that I am subject to search upon entering the workshop/building. It also states that my vehicle is subject to search.
Is my vehicle not my 'personal conveyance' and wouldn't that require a LEO with probable cause?
Building location is in the heart of the ghetto. We have been robbed many times. I even watched two people fire at each other from opposite sides of the road at 5:15PM when I turned out of this parking lot on my way home(the exact reason I am on these forums). You can understand my concern. If I decide to carry and get caught what happens, I lose my job, or do I go to jail?
1 - 20 of 26 Posts
I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that you cannot be compelled to forfeit your rights as a condition of employment. State law says you can keep your gun in your car with a CWFL (unless your employer falls into one of the narrow exceptions). It doesn't matter what the employee handbook says (which, in all likelyhood, was never updated since the new law was passed).
I am not a lawyer and would not have a clue what FL law is, but was on the other side of this question in another state. Before retiring I was plant manager of a large manufacturing plant. All employees signed documents similar to those you describe. There were several times (over a 15 yr period) where we did have company security personnel assist us in searching an employee's car in the company parking lot and also lockers, etc. These were mostly investigations into theft of company property but one involved a weapon - a home made minature cross bow used to harass another employee. During subsequent disciplinary action hearings, union grievances, and a couple of prosecutions lawyers were involved on both sides. None questioned the legality of the search that I can remember.
I'm pretty sure under the "bring your guns to work law" SB2356, your employer can't ban you from securing your firearm in your car, unless they fall within the exemptions set by the state. Bringing it into the building, you're at their mercy."The following are examples of activities which will result in discipline actions up to and including immediate discharge.
Bringing firearms or other dangerous weapons onto company property (including company parking lot)."
If you have a "semipersonal relationship" with the owner, why not talk to him/her?
They can only search you/your car if you let them. They will most likely fire you if you don't let them, but they cannot force you to comply.
According to Florida Statute 790.251I know this has been asked before but in the employee handbook I had to sign to start the job it says this:
"The following are examples of activities which will result in discipline actions up to and including immediate discharge.
Bringing firearms or other dangerous weapons onto company property (including company parking lot)."
Facts:
I worked at this job before I left for basic it was owned by another guy and they reopened under a new name to avoid debt. I actually have a semi personal/professional relationship with the new owner.
I personally know the sole owner of both the parking lot and the building this company rents.
The employee handbook also states that I am subject to search upon entering the workshop/building. It also states that my vehicle is subject to search.
Is my vehicle not my 'personal conveyance' and wouldn't that require a LEO with probable cause?
Building location is in the heart of the ghetto. We have been robbed many times. I even watched two people fire at each other from opposite sides of the road at 5:15PM when I turned out of this parking lot on my way home(the exact reason I am on these forums). You can understand my concern. If I decide to carry and get caught what happens, I lose my job, or do I go to jail?
So, there you are. Is it legal what they are doing? Apparently not.http://www.flsenate.gov/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0790/SEC251.HTM&Title=->2008->Ch0790->Section%20251#0790.251
(1)790.251 Protection of the right to keep and bear arms in motor vehicles for self-defense and other lawful purposes; prohibited acts; duty of public and private employers; immunity from liability; enforcement.--
(1) SHORT TITLE.--This section may be cited as the "Preservation and Protection of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms in Motor Vehicles Act of 2008."
(2) DEFINITIONS.--As used in this section, the term:
(a) "Parking lot" means any property that is used for parking motor vehicles and is available to customers, employees, or invitees for temporary or long-term parking or storage of motor vehicles.
(b) "Motor vehicle" means any automobile, truck, minivan, sports utility vehicle, motor home, recreational vehicle, motorcycle, motor scooter, or any other vehicle operated on the roads of this state and required to be registered under state law.
(c) "Employee" means any person who possesses a valid license issued pursuant to s. 790.06 and:
1. Works for salary, wages, or other remuneration;
2. Is an independent contractor; or
3. Is a volunteer, intern, or other similar individual for an employer.
(d) "Employer" means any business that is a sole proprietorship, partnership, corporation, limited liability company, professional association, cooperative, joint venture, trust, firm, institution, or association, or public sector entity, that has employees.
(e) "Invitee" means any business invitee, including a customer or visitor, who is lawfully on the premises of a public or private employer.
As used in this section, the term "firearm" includes ammunition and accoutrements attendant to the lawful possession and use of a firearm.
(3) LEGISLATIVE INTENT; FINDINGS.--This act is intended to codify the long-standing legislative policy of the state that individual citizens have a constitutional right to keep and bear arms, that they have a constitutional right to possess and keep legally owned firearms within their motor vehicles for self-defense and other lawful purposes, and that these rights are not abrogated by virtue of a citizen becoming a customer, employee, or invitee of a business entity. It is the finding of the Legislature that a citizen's lawful possession, transportation, and secure keeping of firearms and ammunition within his or her motor vehicle is essential to the exercise of the fundamental constitutional right to keep and bear arms and the constitutional right of self-defense. The Legislature finds that protecting and preserving these rights is essential to the exercise of freedom and individual responsibility. The Legislature further finds that no citizen can or should be required to waive or abrogate his or her right to possess and securely keep firearms and ammunition locked within his or her motor vehicle by virtue of becoming a customer, employee, or invitee of any employer or business establishment within the state, unless specifically required by state or federal law.
(4) PROHIBITED ACTS.--No public or private employer may violate the constitutional rights of any customer, employee, or invitee as provided in paragraphs (a)-(e):
(a) No public or private employer may prohibit any customer, employee, or invitee from possessing any legally owned firearm when such firearm is lawfully possessed and locked inside or locked to a private motor vehicle in a parking lot and when the customer, employee, or invitee is lawfully in such area.
(b) No public or private employer may violate the privacy rights of a customer, employee, or invitee by verbal or written inquiry regarding the presence of a firearm inside or locked to a private motor vehicle in a parking lot or by an actual search of a private motor vehicle in a parking lot to ascertain the presence of a firearm within the vehicle. Further, no public or private employer may take any action against a customer, employee, or invitee based upon verbal or written statements of any party concerning possession of a firearm stored inside a private motor vehicle in a parking lot for lawful purposes. A search of a private motor vehicle in the parking lot of a public or private employer to ascertain the presence of a firearm within the vehicle may only be conducted by on-duty law enforcement personnel, based upon due process and must comply with constitutional protections.
(c) No public or private employer shall condition employment upon either:
1. The fact that an employee or prospective employee holds or does not hold a license issued pursuant to s. 790.06; or
2. Any agreement by an employee or a prospective employee that prohibits an employee from keeping a legal firearm locked inside or locked to a private motor vehicle in a parking lot when such firearm is kept for lawful purposes.
(d) No public or private employer shall prohibit or attempt to prevent any customer, employee, or invitee from entering the parking lot of the employer's place of business because the customer's, employee's, or invitee's private motor vehicle contains a legal firearm being carried for lawful purposes, that is out of sight within the customer's, employee's, or invitee's private motor vehicle.
(e) No public or private employer may terminate the employment of or otherwise discriminate against an employee, or expel a customer or invitee for exercising his or her constitutional right to keep and bear arms or for exercising the right of self-defense as long as a firearm is never exhibited on company property for any reason other than lawful defensive purposes.
This subsection applies to all public sector employers, including those already prohibited from regulating firearms under the provisions of s. 790.33.
(5) DUTY OF CARE OF PUBLIC AND PRIVATE EMPLOYERS; IMMUNITY FROM LIABILITY.--
(a) When subject to the provisions of subsection (4), a public or private employer has no duty of care related to the actions prohibited under such subsection.
(b) A public or private employer is not liable in a civil action based on actions or inactions taken in compliance with this section. The immunity provided in this subsection does not apply to civil actions based on actions or inactions of public or private employers that are unrelated to compliance with this section.
(c) Nothing contained in this section shall be interpreted to expand any existing duty, or create any additional duty, on the part of a public or private employer, property owner, or property owner's agent.
(6) ENFORCEMENT.--The Attorney General shall enforce the protections of this act on behalf of any customer, employee, or invitee aggrieved under this act. If there is reasonable cause to believe that the aggrieved person's rights under this act have been violated by a public or private employer, the Attorney General shall commence a civil or administrative action for damages, injunctive relief and civil penalties, and such other relief as may be appropriate under the provisions of s. 760.51, or may negotiate a settlement with any employer on behalf of any person aggrieved under the act. However, nothing in this act shall prohibit the right of a person aggrieved under this act to bring a civil action for violation of rights protected under the act. In any successful action brought by a customer, employee, or invitee aggrieved under this act, the court shall award all reasonable personal costs and losses suffered by the aggrieved person as a result of the violation of rights under this act. In any action brought pursuant to this act, the court shall award all court costs and attorney's fees to the prevailing party.
(7) EXCEPTIONS.--The prohibitions in subsection (4) do not apply to:
(a) Any school property as defined and regulated under s. 790.115.
(b) Any correctional institution regulated under s. 944.47 or chapter 957.
(c) Any property where a nuclear-powered electricity generation facility is located.
(d) Property owned or leased by a public or private employer or the landlord of a public or private employer upon which are conducted substantial activities involving national defense, aerospace, or homeland security.
(e) Property owned or leased by a public or private employer or the landlord of a public or private employer upon which the primary business conducted is the manufacture, use, storage, or transportation of combustible or explosive materials regulated under state or federal law, or property owned or leased by an employer who has obtained a permit required under 18 U.S.C. s. 842 to engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in explosive materials on such property.
(f) A motor vehicle owned, leased, or rented by a public or private employer or the landlord of a public or private employer.
(g) Any other property owned or leased by a public or private employer or the landlord of a public or private employer upon which possession of a firearm or other legal product by a customer, employee, or invitee is prohibited pursuant to any federal law, contract with a federal government entity, or general law of this state.
History.--s. 1, ch. 2008-7.
(1)Note.--Section 2, ch. 2008-7, provides that "[t]his act shall take effect July 1, 2008, and shall apply to causes of action accruing on or after that date."
Do you want to become a test case? That is up to you.
Which is more important to you? Your Second Amendment Right, or your job? That answer is also up to you.
Very good info TampSsgt but I would rather not be the test rat on this one. Although I do plan on carrying so it might very well turn out that way.
Well according to my HR dept as the modified presentation suggested, this law 70.251 is a precurser of work place violence.
Her example was, an employee who becomes upset, say to a bad review or disciplinary action could retrieve the firearm and commit a heinous act.
I had to bite my tongue and not say, well by your logic, the review is as much to blame as the law. Or state one example of this theory to prove your point.
Her example was, an employee who becomes upset, say to a bad review or disciplinary action could retrieve the firearm and commit a heinous act.
I had to bite my tongue and not say, well by your logic, the review is as much to blame as the law. Or state one example of this theory to prove your point.
+1 Pretty much what those above say.
I worked for a few years some time ago in corporate security at an international headquarters for a very large company. Our HR employee documents also had the same thing...this was before the new laws mentioned above. Only twice did we ever have a need to search an employees car, and both times were in a case involving theft of proprietary material. Both times, the employee granted permission. Honestly, I really don't know what the procedure would have been should they have refused. It didn't come up.
In the end, very few employers would risk opening THAT can of worms on themselves unless they felt it was urgently required.
Even Disney doesn't do it all that often. And they're the WORST when it comes to violating employees..(I can say that, I worked there..
)
I worked for a few years some time ago in corporate security at an international headquarters for a very large company. Our HR employee documents also had the same thing...this was before the new laws mentioned above. Only twice did we ever have a need to search an employees car, and both times were in a case involving theft of proprietary material. Both times, the employee granted permission. Honestly, I really don't know what the procedure would have been should they have refused. It didn't come up.
In the end, very few employers would risk opening THAT can of worms on themselves unless they felt it was urgently required.
Even Disney doesn't do it all that often. And they're the WORST when it comes to violating employees..(I can say that, I worked there..
)
Is the vehicle a company vehicle? Then it is their property to do with as they wish.The employee handbook also states that I am subject to search upon entering the workshop/building. It also states that my vehicle is subject to search.
Is my vehicle not my 'personal conveyance' and wouldn't that require a LEO with probable cause?
True but that firing would be without cause and subject them to civil liability. Right to work does not apply if the firing is based on a violation of the law by the employer.They can only search you/your car if you let them. They will most likely fire you if you don't let them, but they cannot force you to comply.
There workplace, there rules. Push the issue and you can be fired. It's called condition of employment.
First, TampaSsgt hit the legalities right on the head with his point. You're allowed by law to bring your own personal firearm with you in your own vehicle (Barring any of the special places when you can't bring them in per the statute), and leave it secured as you head inside the building to go to work.
Now, besides talking about it with someone else, how else are they going to know there is a firearm in the vehicle? At that point it becomes a non-issue. I personally wouldn't bring up the fact that their documentation is out of date since I don't want them to fire me for being "a gun-carrying wacko" disguised as something else. This is a right-to-work state, so that could easily happen.
Hope that helps!
Now, besides talking about it with someone else, how else are they going to know there is a firearm in the vehicle? At that point it becomes a non-issue. I personally wouldn't bring up the fact that their documentation is out of date since I don't want them to fire me for being "a gun-carrying wacko" disguised as something else. This is a right-to-work state, so that could easily happen.
Hope that helps!
A search is not a violation of the law. Your refusal to allow the search is, most likely, a violation of company policy and subject to whatever discipline the employer desires.True but that firing would be without cause and subject them to civil liability. Right to work does not apply if the firing is based on a violation of the law by the employer.
A firing for having a firearm in the car would be illegal, but not for refusing the search. Just ask the security guard from Disney.
Excellent point ! So I would leave it in the vehicle and never mention it. If they ever ask to search, allow them. If they fire you for the gun they are in violation of the state law, as far as volunteering info, I wouldn't. Good luck.A search is not a violation of the law. Your refusal to allow the search is, most likely, a violation of company policy and subject to whatever discipline the employer desires.
A firing for having a firearm in the car would be illegal, but not for refusing the search. Just ask the security guard from Disney.
This is not true, a search of a motor vehicle by an employer is a violation of Florida Statute 790.251 ( Protection of the right to keep and bear arms in motor vehicles for self-defense and other lawful purposes ), because Section (4) states " No public or private employer may violate the constitutional rights of any ... employee ... as provided in paragraphs (a)-(e):A search is not a violation of the law. Your refusal to allow the search is, most likely, a violation of company policy and subject to whatever discipline the employer desires.
A firing for having a firearm in the car would be illegal, but not for refusing the search. Just ask the security guard from Disney.
Section (b) states:
" No public or private employer may violate the privacy rights of a employee, ... by verbal or written inquiry regarding the presence of a firearm inside or locked to a private motor vehicle in a parking lot or by an actual search of a private motor vehicle in a parking lot to ascertain the presence of a firearm within the vehicle. "
" Further, no public or private employer may take any action against a ... employee, ... based upon verbal or written statements of any party concerning possession of a firearm stored inside a private motor vehicle in a parking lot for lawful purposes. "
" A search of a private motor vehicle in the parking lot of a public or private employer to ascertain the presence of a firearm within the vehicle may only be conducted by on-duty law enforcement personnel, based upon due process and must comply with constitutional protections. "
According to the Fourth Amendment - ( Bill of Rights of the United States Constitution )
Search and Seizure
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Since the definition of " effects " means: " property of a personal character that is portable " then yes indeed, a search of an employee vehicle IS a violation of the law of Florida Statute 790.251 AND the 4th. Amendment of the United States Constitution.
=======================================================================================================================
According to Definitions of effects on the Web:http://www.flsenate.gov/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0790/SEC251.HTM&Title=->2008->Ch0790->Section%20251#0790.251
790.251 Protection of the right to keep and bear arms in motor vehicles for self-defense and other lawful purposes; prohibited acts; duty of public and private employers; immunity from liability; enforcement.--
(4) PROHIBITED ACTS.--No public or private employer may violate the constitutional rights of any customer, employee, or invitee as provided in paragraphs (a)-(e):
(b) No public or private employer may violate the privacy rights of a customer, employee, or invitee by verbal or written inquiry regarding the presence of a firearm inside or locked to a private motor vehicle in a parking lot or by an actual search of a private motor vehicle in a parking lot to ascertain the presence of a firearm within the vehicle. Further, no public or private employer may take any action against a customer, employee, or invitee based upon verbal or written statements of any party concerning possession of a firearm stored inside a private motor vehicle in a parking lot for lawful purposes. A search of a private motor vehicle in the parking lot of a public or private employer to ascertain the presence of a firearm within the vehicle may only be conducted by on-duty law enforcement personnel, based upon due process and must comply with constitutional protections.
Fourth Amendment - ( Bill of Rights of the United States Constitution )
Search and Seizure
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7ADBR_en&defl=en&q=define:effects&ei=O4meSovgJsyfmAe6u6msAw&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title
Definitions of effects on the Web:
•property of a personal character that is portable but not used in business
A search for a firearm, may well be a violation, but the reason for the search does not have to be disclosed.This is not true, a search of a motor vehicle by an employer is a violation of Florida Statute 790.251
[Snip}
A smart employer knows the law better than the employee. I've seen it happen many times. Many of us signed an employee code of conduct or policy manual stating that we agree to allow our automobile or personal effects to be searched. Not agreeing to allow the search when your employer wants to do it, will most likely result in some type of disciplinary action, up to and including termination.
Personally, I carry a firearm everywhere I'm legally permitted to do so irrespective of any one's policy, desire, wants or wishes. But then again, I am always prepared for any consequences that may result.
When it comes to a gun secured in your car in the company parking lot, ABSOLUTELY WRONG. Conduct business in this state, comply with the states employment rules or get out of business.There workplace, there rules. Push the issue and you can be fired. It's called condition of employment.
You may have seen mmany searches before, but I bet you haven't seen mmany in FL in the last year. Some rights this one is an example cannot be waived even by mutual consent in a contract, b/c the state realizes that allowing waiver would eliminate the right. Any business that does not correcct theiir employee handbook could be looking at serious legal fees, their atty's and mine.
opcorn THIS is good info. A lot of what I would or wouldn't do probably wouldn't change, but I have a little more leg to stand on with knowledge of available recourse for being fired. Thanks guys !!! Of course it doesn't apply to me now, but it will in the future.1 - 20 of 26 Posts
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