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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
For one reason or another, you get into an argument with a stranger. Perhaps you are driving and get into a minor traffic accident, "fender bender" as they say. It's your fault. Or, perhaps it was just in a grocery store parking lot and your shopping cart accidentally rams into some guy's car door, or you're walking and bump into a guy and he drops his carton of eggs. You get the point. Whatever the situation, it's your fault.

This "BG" is already having a bad day. Therefore, he confronts you immediately.

"What the F--? You imbecile! You idiot!" etc etc etc, he says. You, of course, apologize sincerely. You try your best to calm him down, but he continues and becomes more irate. You offer to pay him for the eggs, or/and give him your insurance information for the accident. For some reason this just makes him angrier. He advances and sucker punches you in the jaw! In your stock and pain you stumble to the ground. He's standing over you. what do you do?
 

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It seems to me that you tried to de-escalate the situation and keep all heads cool. The other person was not having it and he escalated it to the point of physical violence. A fist knocks you to the ground and a boot could be next. Your now in fear for your life. Your left with no other option but to shoot. I can't fight and I'm dont think I can stand up to a beating.
 

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I remember my ccw class instructor talking about disparity of force. Fist versus gun seems like unequal force however you could be knocked out or get hit in the back of the head and die from it. As long as you can convince a jury that you were in fear for your life I would shoot if I was attacked. This is a very realistic scenario that happens all too often. Some people just want to fight.
 

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If your situation is as described then I would use my weapon. Everyone should suffer the consequence of escalating a situation.
 

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As everyone has stated above. If you feel based on your own situation that you are in fear for your life then it's going to be bang bang time. If some punches me and then gets on top of me that means I'll have to defend myself. Do you really want to wrestle around with someone and have the possibility of him taking your weapon and using it on you? NO. I might draw if I manage to create distance between us and yell "Stop" and if he did not then he leaves me no other choice. make sure you call 911 right after and report that your life was in danger and you defended yourself.
 

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If he has knocked you down...then he has taken away your ability to retreat. I would think at that point it would be at least permissable to draw and display your gun and see if that is sufficient to de-escalate the situation...and then go from there.

If you do so...do so with the full intention of using force if need be...and make absolutely certain that you project that to the BG...leave no uncertainty about your position on the matter of your personal safety.

Under most circumstances...this would more often than not cool the situation without the need to escalate the measure of force (ie: shoot the BG)...but be prepared for anything.
 

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Regardless of his ability to not control his emotions, he has assualted you - aggravated assault. Like Glockcarry23 says, a boot to the head could be next. Look at the law...

A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is
attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty
to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with
force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary
to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another
or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

Definition of forcible felony...

776.08 Forcible felony.--"Forcible felony" means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; car-jacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.

Pull your gun and if he tries the boot or further assault, shoot to stop the attack. Just my $.02...I'm no lawyer nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Be interested in your take on it?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I've never been in a situation like that, but most of your responses are to draw first, then fire if the situation gets worst. It depends on how I handled that hit. If I knew I could stand up, then I would likely try to get some distance between myself and the prep. but if I was really hurt from the hit and fall. I would probably be drawing and shooting if that guy moved any closer.
 

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I've never been in a situation like that, but most of your responses are to draw first, then fire if the situation gets worst. It depends on how I handled that hit. If I knew I could stand up, then I would likely try to get some distance between myself and the prep. but if I was really hurt from the hit and fall. I would probably be drawing and shooting if that guy moved any closer.
If someone hits me once and then backs off I would not draw or reveal my weapon however if he is on top of me and refuse my commands then he has left me no choice but to defend myself using deadly force. He might back down once I produce my weapon and this may save his life. I will be calling 911 no matter what the outcome is.
 

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Most fights are won by whoever hits first. If you think he is about to strike, you draw. If he does strike first, chances are you're not going to be in any shape to draw until he is done with you.

If he sucker punched me, I would immediately draw at the minimum. I may even shoot if I thought he was still advancing when I got the weapon aimed. I wouldn't try to stand, I wouldn't try to talk, I would just draw if I could.

I hope the weapon being drawn would change his mood.
 

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Situational awareness is key, as is some ability to read indicators of physical conflict. There are oodles of clips online of sucker punches, fist fights, etc. Watch and learn. Be aware of something happening that's actually a distraction.

I'm not going to go over the legality of drawing against an unarmed attacker, even if he did just floor you.

However, be aware that you've just been placed in a VERY compromised and weakened position. Consider the BG's superior position before you start trying to fumble for your weapon ON THE GROUND. Have you trained to do that? BIG difference. Don't give the guy a chance to take it from you.

Rule #1 when I'm training folks: Don't kick your own [butt]

-JT
 

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This happened to a Martin Co. Sheriff Deputy a couple weeks ago.
Officer pulls a 10-50 on a suspected DUI and two brothers jumped him and started to kick him while he was on the ground.
Officer pulls his G22 and kills one brother and the other brother runs off.
So far the officers action was justified.

But the scenario you are describing, why not (when it starts escalating)
go back to your vehicle and get in.
Castle doctrine is now expanded to you car.
 

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Hmmm I am knocked to the ground, BG is standing over me ready to provide me with more pain????

Drawing a gun from concealed location at this distance probably not gonna happen unless BG is distracted? I would try to get the advantage, and render a kick, punch whatever to his twigs and berries, to try to buy me some time, then try to get up and quick backpeddal while drawing the sidearm and ready for more if the BG wants to go down that road....., then two in the chest one in the head.....
 

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In my opinion if you draw you better have a good explination to the police and a good attorney because you may be going to jail. If the BG doesn't have a weapon, my guess is you are going to have to explain how you feared for your life when you were still concious and had enough wits about you to pull your gun. Though I am not a lawyer I believe that you can spend up to ten years in jail for pointing a gun at someone without just cause and in the scenario provided I don't think you could argue that your life was in danger without the BG having some type of weapon. I know that its only seconds and decisions are made quickly but fro me I am not pulling unless he has a weapon. If he keeps coming I get up and put something between him and me(like my car) and tell him to relax cause once the cops get here he is really going to have issues.

But I also have been punched and kicked in the head on occasion and wasn't in fear of my life.

I also have a very hard head:)
 

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But I also have been punched and kicked in the head on occasion and wasn't in fear of my life.

Perhaps you should have been.:rolleyes:

A reasonable and prudent man or woman on any jury would be in fear of losing their life or suffering great bodily injury if they were kicked in the head by an assailant with intent to cause harm [ as in, not an accident ].

He's met the three criteria for use of deadly force in every state [ to my knowledge ]. He's met the means, motive and opportunity to do you more physical harm or kill you.

You have to be able to articulate you were in fear of severe bodily injury or death. Would a prudent and reasonable person expect to be potentially seriously injured by being punched in the head? That depends on other variables like disparity of force issues [ his size to yours; his age to yours, etc ].

At 57, if I'm confronted, assaulted and battered by someone half my age without provocation from myself, I'd expect that person to be able to seriously injure me if I give him that opportunity. There's the rub, don't pull a firearm you have on you, and he could kick you once in the head [ he's close enough ] and you could suffer brain damage/coma or death. Thats pretty immediate and serious potential from the perp who has already shown he is willing to injure you.

You need to be able to articulate your reasonable suspicion his intention and opportunity to injure you seriously or potentially cause death was imminent. He's already proved that by the A+B on your person which has you on the ground.

Notice I didn't say pull the firearm and shoot him automatically. I'll tell you what though, if I were to pull a gun from the ground [ and if I was capable of doing so without his potentially taking it from me while doing so ], it would be with the warning that if he didn't back up/off right then I would shoot. His actions then dictate whether his mother is going to be crying over his being cold forever in a few days.

The above reply is not just bravado on the internet. I worked the streets for 28 years in some very real danger by the location alone. Things happen fast, if you don't pull that firearm when and if you have the chance, you may not get another chance and go home at the end of the day, it's that simple.

Brownie
 

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Perhaps you should have been.:rolleyes:
You may be right, but I wasn't

A reasonable and prudent man or woman on any jury would be in fear of losing their life or suffering great bodily injury if they were kicked in the head by an assailant with intent to cause harm [ as in, not an accident ].
You may be willing to bet ten years in prison on what reasonable people might think, I am not. What if the guy you shot and killed was just having a bad day. What if by all other accounts he was a saint.


You have to be able to articulate you were in fear of severe bodily injury or death. Would a prudent and reasonable person expect to be potentially seriously injured by being punched in the head? That depends on other variables like disparity of force issues [ his size to yours; his age to yours, etc ].
If I have to prove all those things to a jury, like I said I hope you have a good defense attorney cause it is not a slam dunk for you. If the guy was coming at you with a bat or some other weapon ok, what if he was 5'4.

At 57, if I'm confronted, assaulted and battered by someone half my age without provocation from myself, I'd expect that person to be able to seriously injure me if I give him that opportunity. There's the rub, don't pull a firearm you have on you, and he could kick you once in the head [ he's close enough ] and you could suffer brain damage/coma or death. Thats pretty immediate and serious potential from the perp who has already shown he is willing to injure you.
Excellent point! But in the OP's post he didn't say the guys age. You said if the guy was half your age. Well I am 29. I am 6'1'' and I weigh 220lbs. What if you punched me cause I hit your car? Would the jury see that I was justified in gunning you down? Probably not.

You need to be able to articulate your reasonable suspicion his intention and opportunity to injure you seriously or potentially cause death was imminent. He's already proved that by the A+B on your person which has you on the ground.
Again, you really wouldn't be articulating anything. If your at this junction of the investigation, I would hope that you had an attorney in the room with you. Do you think the cops would just show up and write the report and you go on your merry way? Not happening. Your going downtown no matter what. Personally I don't want to be making case law for anyone.


Notice I didn't say pull the firearm and shoot him automatically. I'll tell you what though, if I were to pull a gun from the ground [ and if I was capable of doing so without his potentially taking it from me while doing so ], it would be with the warning that if he didn't back up/off right then I would shoot. His actions then dictate whether his mother is going to be crying over his being cold forever in a few days.
Well ok, but now your side of the story has to match his. I am sure that as soon as the cops show up this guy's story as to how things went down are going to vary from yours.

"Well officer I was just sitting at the light when this guy rear ends me. I get out and he is all abrupt and all I want to do is get the info and get on our way and he starts cursing at me so yeah I got pissed and hit him sure I admit that. Then all of a sudden he pulls a gun and starts threating to shoot me!"

To me and me only the OP's scenario doesn't dictate to my threat level that I pull my gun. I have been in several fights (winning and losing end) and I never really felt like my life was threatened. Maybe I am just lucky, but if I am going to take another person's life I have to live with that the rest of mine. I want to be sure that I am not spending that time in jail wondering if I did the right thing. I would also love to say that the justice system works to a fault but it doesn't and there is way to much proof of that for me to risk it over getting punched.
 

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You may be willing to bet ten years in prison on what reasonable people might think, I am not. What if the guy you shot and killed was just having a bad day. What if by all other accounts he was a saint.

You throw 10 year sentences around like thats automatic or something.:rolf

Bolded: What if he was? Does it change the fact he assaulted me and I'm on the ground and injured? Not one bit, it's irrelevant to the courts.

If the guy was coming at you with a bat or some other weapon ok, what if he was 5'4.

Underlined: I covered that with the disparity of force statements in my first post. The totality of circumstances dictates whether a reasonable and prudent person would be in fear of their life or great bodily injury. What if when he hits you, a ring catches you in the eye, or you suffer from blurred vision? Think you are in jeapody now? Hint--you are by anyones standards.

Well I am 29. I am 6'1'' and I weigh 220lbs. What if you punched me cause I hit your car? Would the jury see that I was justified in gunning you down? Probably not.

See above on disparity of force and how it plays into the totality of the circumstances/evidence.

Do you think the cops would just show up and write the report and you go on your merry way?

To reiterate: "I worked the streets for 28 years in some very real danger by the location alone". That can't possibly sound like I would be naive enough to have them show up, take a report and your on your way does it?:thumsup

I'm quite familiar with the court system, and whats required of representation. At that, probably quite a bit more familiar with the criminal justice system than many members here.

Your going downtown no matter what.

Thats not a given at all. I will likely go to the hospital seeking medical attention for the physical injurie/s sustained, as well as seeking PTSD treatment for the psychological trauma I've been put in by the agrresor.

Well ok, but now your side of the story has to match his

Officers are unlikely to ever run into this type of altercation where both parties involved have the same story. The officers don't expect it to begin with, so I don't see the point you are trying to make here.

"Well officer I was just sitting at the light when this guy rear ends me. I get out and he is all abrupt and all I want to do is get the info and get on our way and he starts cursing at me so yeah I got pissed and hit him sure I admit that. Then all of a sudden he pulls a gun and starts threating to shoot me!"

Lets take your above scenario one step at a time--the one who was at fault for the accident starts swearing at you. You pop him because you got pissed. Both parties are guilty, both escalated the use of force and broke the law. Both go, one here is not innocent and the other guilty, you'll both be charged.

Him for aggressing on you verbally, then physically with the firearm, You by punching him physically. You both go. Neither is right in your scenario.

Brownie
 

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Here are the laws pertaining to this situation. ANYTIME one has to use deadly force, they are facing the same split-second, decision-making process that LEO's have to make. Believe me, it isn't easy and is isn't fun ..... but it has to be done.

=========================================================

The 2007 Florida Statutes

Title XLVI
CRIMES Chapter 776
JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.--A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or

(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.


776.08 Forcible felony.--"Forcible felony" means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.

History.--s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 4, ch. 75-298; s. 289, ch. 79-400; s. 5, ch. 93-212; s. 10, ch. 95-195.

784.021 Aggravated assault.--

(1) An "aggravated assault" is an assault:

(a) With a deadly weapon without intent to kill; or

(b) With an intent to commit a felony.


(2) Whoever commits an aggravated assault shall be guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

History.--s. 2, ch. 3275, 1881; RS 2402; GS 3228; RGS 5061; CGL 7163; s. 1, ch. 29709, 1955; s. 1, ch. 57-345; s. 731, ch. 71-136; s. 18, ch. 74-383; s. 8, ch. 75-298.

Note.--Former s. 784.04.

784.045 Aggravated battery.--

(1)(a) A person commits aggravated battery who, in committing battery:

1. Intentionally or knowingly causes great bodily harm, permanent disability, or permanent disfigurement; or


2. Uses a deadly weapon.

(b) A person commits aggravated battery if the person who was the victim of the battery was pregnant at the time of the offense and the offender knew or should have known that the victim was pregnant.

(2) Whoever commits aggravated battery shall be guilty of a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

History.--s. 1, ch. 70-63; s. 732, ch. 71-136; s. 20, ch. 74-383; s. 10, ch. 75-298; s. 3, ch. 88-344.

=========================================================

Now, with the laws being what they are, here would be my action in this situation:

If I am knocked to the ground, and I am able to defend myself with NON-deadly force, then I will do so. If the attack is a simple scuffle or fight, then NO, deadly force is NOT warranted.

In plain English ... If I get into a tussle or a fight and I am hit by someone and they knock me down, I will make every attempt to get up and defend myself by fighting back with my hands.

BUT .....

If, the assailant has caused great bodily harm to myself and I am unable to defend myself with NON-deadly force AND he is continuing his attack on me to the point where I am in fear of my life or great bodily harm, permanent disability, or permanent disfigurement, then I will use deadly force.

In plain English, the assailant has hit me and I am down and I am unable to get back up and defend myself, and the assailant is continuing to attack me with such force that I am afraid that he will hurt me seriously, or may even kill me, because I am unable to defend myself, then yes, I will use deadly force to survive.

Using deadly force in a simple fight or altercation is NOT legal. Use your hands to defend yourself.

Using deadly force to protect yourself from great bodily harm or death IS legal.

Welcome to the split-second, life-threatening, decision-making world of Law Enforcement Officers!! :eek:
 
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