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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
First part:
You suddenly find yourself with a knife to your neck from behind.

Do you feel this is a hostage situation? Are you a hostage and helpless or can you do something [ anything ] to effect a safe resolution to this and get away?

Second part:

You suddenly find yourself facing an aggressive person who has pulled a knife and has it to throat, or chest threatening to cut/stab you if you do not give them the money.

What do you do? What do you think you can do to effect your personal safety? Do you comply and hope for the best?

What is your mindset/thoughts at being threatened with a knife like this?

Brownie
 

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First part:
You suddenly find yourself with a knife to your neck from behind.

Do you feel this is a hostage situation? Are you a hostage and helpless or can you do something [ anything ] to effect a safe resolution to this and get away?
It is either a hostage situation or a prelude to my murder, I don't know how to "feel" about it?

Am I helpless? That depends on a lot of factors. A "safe resolution" is a tricky thing. Can I do things that have a reasonable chance of improving my survival? Possibly.

I have seen what a real knife can do to a real throat so once something has gotten this far it kind of like asking what to do when someone is shooting at you.


Second part:

You suddenly find yourself facing an aggressive person who has pulled a knife and has it to throat, or chest threatening to cut/stab you if you do not give them the money.

What do you do? What do you think you can do to effect your personal safety? Do you comply and hope for the best?

What is your mindset/thoughts at being threatened with a knife like this?

Brownie
My first thoughts are that I don't want to turn a simple robbery into a fight for my life. If the bad guy has gotten this much of an advantage I don't want to get in any deeper if I don't have to.

Lots of variables and lots of options. I think that "comply" and "hope for the best" against the implied "fight" are a false dichotomy. I am going to take whatever action I can that will improve my position.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
It is either a hostage situation or a prelude to my murder, I don't know how to "feel" about it?

Interesting.

Am I helpless? That depends on a lot of factors. A "safe resolution" is a tricky thing. Can I do things that have a reasonable chance of improving my survival? Possibly.

The only factor it depends on is if you have the use of your two hands. It's not a matter of possibly improving your chances of surviving, the skill to take control of the situation is accomplished quite easily. In the S+W LE classes, it was one of the scenarios I would give them and ask them if a knife stuck up under my chin was a hostage situation. Every one of them in every class for 3 years stated yes it was.

I then showed them how to get out of the situation using both hands and then asked them again if they would be hostages. Every one then said no, got up were able to control the blade and aggressor immediately to effect a positive resolution to the problem. Some of the state troopers were 6'4" going upwards of 240 pounds and they could not cut/stab the supposed victim nor stop the take down.

I have seen what a real knife can do to a real throat so once something has gotten this far it kind of like asking what to do when someone is shooting at you.

I believe it's a very different scenario than being shot at. In this instance, the contact weapon can be touched to effect a stop, where a gun is not a contact weapon and can injure or kill you without contact.

My first thoughts are that I don't want to turn a simple robbery into a fight for my life. If the bad guy has gotten this much of an advantage I don't want to get in any deeper if I don't have to.

I don't believe you can assume a simple robbery is not a fight for your life. Your life is in danger at all times when you are being threatened with lethal force via some weapon. I prefer to not rely on the generousity of my assailant to let me live and feel my own destiny should be placed in my hands not theirs, hence the skills to effect surviving such encounters.

I am going to take whatever action I can that will improve my position.

I agree, taking action is always going to be the best course of action once one has the proper training and skills to pull it off reliably. In the courses I train others in, the resolution is swift, easy to accomplish by the students once demonstrated and in more classes than I can begin to count, both private and groups, no one has not been able to use this skill effectively.

It's about proper training in the skills. The knowledge sets you free if you are willing to make the move and not wait for the BG to grace you with your life.

Brownie
 

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The only factor it depends on is if you have the use of your two hands. It's not a matter of possibly improving your chances of surviving, the skill to take control of the situation is accomplished quite easily.
Well you are claiming to be able to solve a problem no other reputable knife instructor I have ever had the pleasure of training with has ever claimed to be able to deal with: a razor sharp knife already in contact with your body, and you don't get cut.

And you have a 100% sure fire method of dealing with that? I would be interested in hearing a description of it.
 

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Well you are claiming to be able to solve a problem no other reputable knife instructor I have ever had the pleasure of training with has ever claimed to be able to deal with: a razor sharp knife already in contact with your body, and you don't get cut.
And who have you trained with??
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
Al,

Well you are claiming to be able to solve a problem no other reputable knife instructor I have ever had the pleasure of training with has ever claimed to be able to deal with: a razor sharp knife already in contact with your body, and you don't get cut.

Two of my own instructors showed myself as a student how to get this done. One you'd not likely have heard of by the name of Bobby Bass [ ex SF'er ] and the other was James Keating, an emeritas in the defensive knife skills. I'm not sure a lot of the men who can handle blades are "reputable", but they sure have reputations within certain circles.

And you have a 100% sure fire method of dealing with that? I would be interested in hearing a description of it.

Take a drive up to Lake Mary in June, I'd be happy to demonstrate the skill for you in front of the class who'll be getting this skill and more that weekend. If you can't make it, no problem, I'm sure the students will be happy to revisit this thread after that weekend and explain how effective it is in their after action reviews.

Brownie
 

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At least four who's name would be known to anyone in the business. I now know who to ask about the information presented and I can verify it for myself from first hand sources.
Still didnt answer the question..and who might those 4 famous trainers be so I can verify for myself from first hand sources..:popcorn
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I now know who to ask about the information presented and I can verify it for myself from first hand sources.

Verify for yourself? That sounds awfully close to questioning my integrity Al. Are you questioning the integrity of the information I've posted?

Like I offered in my last post, come on up to Lake Marry and see for yourself. Don't bother with worrying about the cost, I'll just show this one skill and then you can be on your way.

Brownie
 

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Still didnt answer the question..and who might those 4 famous trainers be so I can verify for myself from first hand sources..:popcorn
I am not the one trying to sell anything here.

If there is a problem with checking an instructors credentials before sending him a check I think you have answered the question.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
If there is a problem with checking an instructors credentials before sending him a check I think you have answered the question.

No there isn't and I welcome your creds checking, but we both know you aren't sending a check for this class so I'd have reason to question your need to know based on your own statement of checking to verify before sending money. I worked as a defensive edged weapons instructor for several years before I brought the guns skills to the surface. I wouldn't suggest you knew that so questioning my background in that arena makes sense in this regard if you are a prospective student.

Jimmy's number 541-938-3451, I'm not giving out his private cell number.

Call Barbara [ she sets up the classes and takes care of students for the training division ] at the S+W academy. She'll certainly verify I was the adjunct instructor there for 3 years training LE and civilians.

Maybe call the police chief of New Braintree, Mass. Bert DeVerny is his name. Bert hired me on at the academy in 1999 when he was the director of training at Smith and Wesson.

Now, taking your post about no known reputable instructor you know showing this skill. I've trained with Mike Janich twice, once for 5 days up at Estes Park in Colorado and a weekend in Ohio before that and Mike doesn't show this particular skill in the classes I've attended with him. You suggesting that no known reputable instructor you know doesn't mean there aren't people out there who you don't know that can show you the same thing.

BTW--I'd like to again extend the invite to come up to Lake Mary and see just what it is I can do to you with a knife to my neck.

And the name of those four instructors of yours would be?

Brownie
 

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I am not the one trying to sell anything here.

If there is a problem with checking an instructors credentials before sending him a check I think you have answered the question.
Al, I'm not trying to sell you anything, nor am I an edged weapon expert..I asked you who have trained with...your the one who said "No reputable trainer you have trained with has this skill" ..If they dont, why not..but then again, there alot of so called edged weapons experts out there that couldn't cut a steak laid out in front of them..

BTW, I'm sure you know who Brownie is..being as your an SI kinda guy..I'm sure your esteemed edged weapon expert at SI knows also..Check with him..
 

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I don't know who brownie is. I know Gabe does not like him, but that is between Gabe and him. I don't require people I do business with to like each other or agree on everything.

I know Matthew Tempkin and others say he is good to go on shooting and in that field Matt's word is good for me. I just have run into to many instructors over the years that require some checking out, even if they are good in one area.

Edited to add: And I sent an email to someone I know that has trained with Keating. I know his level of skill and it will tell me what I need to know.


Edited a second time: One reason I don't want to list instructors is because I run into too many "personality" issues between them. I don't want to get into a "My guru is better than your guru" argument. That aspect has been, to some degree, evidenced here.
 

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The way I see it. There is the guy who already has decided he might kill you and the guy who is desperate or stupid and doesn't actually want to kill you. Either way, I would fight if I thought there was an opening... all you have to do is get away long enough to draw. I have also seen autopsy photos of knife wounds and its not something I want to mess with. No matter what the outcome, if I am not bleeding profusely that guy is screwed. I will chase him and call the police... if he turns on me, I am armed and at a safe distance.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
I just have run into to many instructors over the years that require some checking out.

I gave you the numbers. You can find Bert pretty easy, information for New Braintree, Mass police dept and ask for the chief.

If you know my reputation through Temkin and others on the guns and you take him at his word, why would you question the knife skills. Matt saw this move just last weekend, so you could call or pm Matt on this also.

Come on up to Lake Mary and see for yourself, it's only 14 weeks away. There's no need to question the integrity of the materials here, let's do it in real time and if you can't make it, we'll let the students report the results in this thread after they have taken the training.

Brownie
 

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Seems like a no-brainer to me, although formal training might make things a little more one-sided. If someone has a razor-sharp knife to my neck, and is threatening to kill me, what have I go to lose? And if it's touching my skin, chances are I'm already cut somewhat.

If you're going to die anyway, what have you got to lose? Especially if I'm carrying, as long as the BG doesn't cut my throat, I may just have to bleed a little before I shoot him. A bad facial cut, or maybe the loss of an ear is an acceptable trade-off for your life.

I don't know how anyone could explain how to get out of this situation on-line, but I'd go down like a ton of bricks, roll and come up shooting. Sounds plausible, eh?
 

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Brownie, you gave me the information I asked for I don't have a problem. I think SwampRat just took it wrong.

Why question the knife aspect? Because there are enough "flavors" of knife out there that I need to know a bit about where you are coming from. Too many cooks spoil the broth.

edited to add (I hate double posting)

XD-Man said:
I don't know how anyone could explain how to get out of this situation on-line, but I'd go down like a ton of bricks, roll and come up shooting. Sounds plausible, eh?
For humor: http://www.ehow.com/video_2356899_escape-knife-throat-chin-drop.html

There are a couple of ways to lock the arm if it is reaching across and you can get behind the elbow.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I think that answers the question about your not having seen this from the four instructors you've been in training with.

Different flavors, and every trainer has their own expertise in areas of defensive knife.

Brownie
 

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I haven't seen many thugs that are much taller than me... not the ones that would pull this kind of stunt. Why not just throw your arm up on the side holding the knife and dive away? (probably a bad idea, b/c you still have a good chance of getting cut, plus it won't work for you short people).... or if they are in front of you fall backwards real quick and before you completely lose your balance spin and take off sprinting... you are in the perfect position for optimal acceleration, even the fastest guy would have a hard time catching you before you can draw.
 
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