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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
I had the same thought as 7.62K. My instinct would be to pick up the gun and fire with the off hand, but if the BG was right on top of me when he fired the shot, I might not have time to do anything except charge him (and probably die fighting).
Steve, he could be right on top of you, but normally an aggressor wouldn't be close enough to grab them. If the aggressor was that close, as they always start the party first, I'm not sure drawing the gun would be the best option to begin with to have that hand damaged.

Normal SD distances, 6-12 feet maybe. Now if he has shot your hand and you've dropped the gun, is he more apt to keep firing or close while doing so on the streets to then make it even a viable h2h option?
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
Lets look at the scenario. You're "in it" [ the party ], it's just started and you've been injured in the hand and dropped the gun. Normal SD distances apply here, so lets consider 6-12 maybe 15 feet max.

You're taking incoming, we don't believe he stops at one round that's disabled your hand where you've dropped the gun. So you're still taking incoming, what's your FIRST option to get back in the fight? Pick the gun up with your non damaged off hand and get to throwing lead back.

What if the gun is disabled when you've been hit in the hand somehow? It's possible and another actually mentioned it. How do you know the gun is disabled unless you pick it up and try to use it? Seems the first option still applies, ya gotta find out if it's disabled, and if it is, well, that was still your first viable option at living through it.

So lets say the gun is disabled. You're still taking incoming. Is that a survivable?
 

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Lets look at the scenario. You're "in it" [ the party ], it's just started and you've been injured in the hand and dropped the gun. Normal SD distances apply here, so lets consider 6-12 maybe 15 feet max.

You're taking incoming, we don't believe he stops at one round that's disabled your hand where you've dropped the gun. So you're still taking incoming, what's your FIRST option to get back in the fight? Pick the gun up with your non damaged off hand and get to throwing lead back.

What if the gun is disabled when you've been hit in the hand somehow? It's possible and another actually mentioned it. How do you know the gun is disabled unless you pick it up and try to use it? Seems the first option still applies, ya gotta find out if it's disabled, and if it is, well, that was still your first viable option at living through it.

So lets say the gun is disabled. You're still taking incoming. Is that a survivable?
I think not.
 

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I’d pick it up if it was the only gun I brought to the party and may very well be. I’d have to try it if it was.

As an aside, you mentioned getting shot in the primary hand and it’s out of commission leaving only your weak hand. During my Aikido days we used to train with our weak hand only by tucking our primary arm into our belt as if it was broken/unusable. It was out of commission for that exercise. A lot of people that have never had to use their weak arm were in for a big surprise, some of them were almost useless in their defense which is to say nothing of their offense. You can’t win the game on defense only, you gotta score some points to win. In this case “points” are incapacitation blows/death blows… . Whether it’s unarmed self defense or armed self defense, you better be training with all your limbs equally. You never know when your “favorite” might not be there for you and you have to rely on your weak one. YMMV
 

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Go Jackie Chan on him. Drop to the ground and simultaneously execute a scissor-leg take down while retrieving the gun with the good hand. Then... a prone Mozambique drill.

Simple! 🙃 ;)
 
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I didn't state shot with a rifle at 100 yrds.
Interesting response, so you'd not pick the gun up and fire with your offhand?
"You're right at the start of engaging" --- suggesting you've taken incoming, been shot in the hand and he's likely still firing on you [ where it was right at the start of the engagement ]. You're going with something you watched you boy do with practice that you've never tried before, under duress?

Hmm,
You said he was up close if he’s so close I can step in and get physical I think it might be a better choice than bending over to retrieve the gun and taking another round in the head. I watched my son do many things in BJJ. But was also the test dummy when he wanted to practice and in the process did same things on him. Many were defense from chokes and many were chokes. Many were takedowns and many were defending from one.

If my opponent is many feet away than obviously the choice would be different. I might even seek cover and to gtfo. The gun I just dropped ain’t worth my life. I have other guns I don’t have another life.

Your scenario has too many unknown factors to give a one time correct answer.
Where are we?
Is there any cover close by?
Could I make it to that before getting shot again?
Is there an open door to a store I could dip into?
Is my car close by?
Am I standing out in the open and taking rounds from an aggressor? Do I stay there on the X and try to retrieve what I just dropped and probably get shot again?
 

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Steve, he could be right on top of you, but normally an aggressor wouldn't be close enough to grab them. If the aggressor was that close, as they always start the party first, I'm not sure drawing the gun would be the best option to begin with to have that hand damaged.

Normal SD distances, 6-12 feet maybe. Now if he has shot your hand and you've dropped the gun, is he more apt to keep firing or close while doing so on the streets to then make it even a viable h2h option?
Lets look at the scenario. You're "in it" [ the party ], it's just started and you've been injured in the hand and dropped the gun. Normal SD distances apply here, so lets consider 6-12 maybe 15 feet max.

You're taking incoming, we don't believe he stops at one round that's disabled your hand where you've dropped the gun. So you're still taking incoming, what's your FIRST option to get back in the fight? Pick the gun up with your non damaged off hand and get to throwing lead back.

What if the gun is disabled when you've been hit in the hand somehow? It's possible and another actually mentioned it. How do you know the gun is disabled unless you pick it up and try to use it? Seems the first option still applies, ya gotta find out if it's disabled, and if it is, well, that was still your first viable option at living through it.

So lets say the gun is disabled. You're still taking incoming. Is that a survivable?
You’re contradicting yourself.
First post you say ‘you’re not sure it would be a good idea to draw’
Second post you say ‘you dropped the gun’ implying I already drew.
Which is it?
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
You’re contradicting yourself.
First post you say ‘you’re not sure it would be a good idea to draw’
Second post you say ‘you dropped the gun’ implying I already drew.
Which is it?
No, that wasn't my first post, that was a reply to Steve relative the guy being "that close". That was a potential and left to the poster.

Steve, he could be right on top of you, but normally an aggressor wouldn't be close enough to grab them. If the aggressor was that close, as they always start the party first, I'm not sure drawing the gun would be the best option to begin with

As for your other options you've listed for you personally? You're taking incoming, been shot, you believe you're going to turn and run. That's a viable option for you, I'm good with that.
 

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No, that wasn't my first post, that was a reply to Steve relative the guy being "that close". That was a potential and left to the poster.

Steve, he could be right on top of you, but normally an aggressor wouldn't be close enough to grab them. If the aggressor was that close, as they always start the party first, I'm not sure drawing the gun would be the best option to begin with

As for your other options you've listed for you personally? You're taking incoming, been shot, you believe you're going to turn and run. That's a viable option for you, I'm good with that.
first post meaning first of two I quoted.
You left too many factors out to be able to answer with any reasonable response. My aggressor and I are not in a vacuum.
Answer my questions in post 27 and I’ll be better able to respond.
 

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I remember a mad minute at the end of one of our training days where I approached the line with 170 rounds all over my body...near the end my arthritis took over and my right hand became less Tham functional...I didn't even think about it...just changed hands and continued dropping point shoulder rounds into the same ragged hole...reloads and all...then an old man tapped me on the elbow with my last mag and we finished the minute empty...it gas to be an automated response to work...when something doesn't work an alternative just takes its place...

With am adrenaline dump you may not even register the hit on your hand...just realize it isn't working...the response has to be automatic and thoughtless to be effective...

Train as you fight... fight as you train...
 
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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
I remember a mad minute at the end of one of our training days where I approached the line with 170 rounds all over my body...near the end my arthritis took over and my right hand became less Tham functional...I didn't even think about it...just changed hands and continued dropping point shoulder rounds into the same ragged hole...reloads and all...then an old man tapped me on the elbow with my last mag and we finished the minute empty...it gas to be an automated response to work...when something doesn't work an alternative just takes its place...

With am adrenaline dump you may not even register the hit on your hand...just realize it isn't working...the response has to be automatic and thoughtless to be effective...

Train as you fight... fight as you train...
IMO, the odds of survival are slim and none unless one has a BUG that's instantly available to the good hand.

I'd hope it would be something like what happened in Chinatown one evening between two Tong gangs. 5-6 members on each side are 12-15 feet apart when they open up on each other. Over 30 rds fired, NO hits on either side. With that type of luck, the guy who's shooting at you won't hit you again before you can get the off hand running that scooped up gun.

That move to the gun has to take 1.5 seconds or more to get it operational with lead headed outbound. It's a potential to take at least another 2-3 in that time from his firearm.
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 · (Edited)
Answer the questions in post 27.
View attachment 78772
Where are we?
leaving the shooting range, pick a venue you like

Is there any cover close by?
There may or may not be, you choose

Could I make it to that before getting shot again?
Indeterminable, but take your own shooting ability and put the perp in your shoes, could someone make it even 5 feet before you had two or more in him?

Is there an open door to a store I could dip into?
perhaps,

Is my car close by?
not close enough to use for cover

Am I standing out in the open and taking rounds from an aggressor?
Yes, out in the open.

Do I stay there on the X and try to retrieve what I just dropped and probably get shot again?
That's your decision to make.

Now, you've been shot, you can run 21 feet in 1.5 seconds, he can fire 3 rounds in a second. Or you can pick the gun up and shoot back with your good hand. Or you could run back into the gun range where you just exited from. Or you could attack him h2H and try to use something you've seen your son trained in. I don't hold a lot of confidence in your lack of H2h skills [ admittedly ] being of much value as you run head long into more bullets ], but that's just me.

Now you've got your answers, what are YOUR options.

Your choice, I still think the scenario isn't survivable for 99.9% of carriers. Now you're the shooter, is he going to keep you from shooting him over and over while he runs away, runs to some cover nearby? I doubt it, and that sir is where you are in the scenario, your options [ everyone's options ] suck. If you can form a tactical plan from the above, lets hear it.

Now I'm the one who has put lead on the guys hand whose dropped the gun. Will he have time to look for cover before being shot repeatedly? No. Will he have time to move to cover while I'm putting lead on him? No. Will he be taking continued incoming, I'd think so. When I put myself in the BG's shoes and I've defanged your pistol where your hand is damaged, there's really nothing he can do to prevent me from putting multiples on him. I look at it like if that's not going to work for him, it's extremely unlikely it's going to work for me. YMMV, of course.
 

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Did someone mention gun damage?
10:00 minute mark to 11:00
Surely your quality edc will fair better than any budget gun.

 

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Lets look at the scenario. You're "in it" [ the party ], it's just started and you've been injured in the hand and dropped the gun. Normal SD distances apply here, so lets consider 6-12 maybe 15 feet max.

You're taking incoming, we don't believe he stops at one round that's disabled your hand where you've dropped the gun. So you're still taking incoming, what's your FIRST option to get back in the fight? Pick the gun up with your non damaged off hand and get to throwing lead back.

What if the gun is disabled when you've been hit in the hand somehow? It's possible and another actually mentioned it. How do you know the gun is disabled unless you pick it up and try to use it? Seems the first option still applies, ya gotta find out if it's disabled, and if it is, well, that was still your first viable option at living through it.

So lets say the gun is disabled. You're still taking incoming. Is that a survivable?
The possibility of the gun being disabled was from me and if this is an engagement inside of 15 ft, while I may try to see if I can retrieve the gun with the weak hand, that will likely send more fire in my direction and if I don't have a BUG to go to RFN or can't get to cover immediately, I'm likely going down and perhaps just playing possum in hope he thinks I'm dead. If I'm still alive after that, I'll wait as long as possible and look for a chance to escape to safety and medical attention. Got to know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em. :unsure:
 

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Where are we?
leaving the shooting range, pick a venue you like

Is there any cover close by?
There may or may not be, you choose

Could I make it to that before getting shot again?
Indeterminable, but take your own shooting ability and put the perp in your shoes, could someone make it even 5 feet before you had two or more in him?

Is there an open door to a store I could dip into?
perhaps,

Is my car close by?
not close enough to use for cover

Am I standing out in the open and taking rounds from an aggressor?
Yes, out in the open.

Do I stay there on the X and try to retrieve what I just dropped and probably get shot again?
That's your decision to make.

Now, you've been shot, you can run 21 feet in 1.5 seconds, he can fire 3 rounds in a second. Or you can pick the gun up and shoot back with your good hand. Or you could run back into the gun range where you just exited from. Or you could attack him h2H and try to use something you've seen your son trained in. I don't hold a lot of confidence in your lack of H2h skills [ admittedly ] being of much value as you run head long into more bullets ], but that's just me.

Now you've got your answers, what are YOUR options.

Your choice, I still think the scenario isn't survivable for 99.9% of carriers. Now you're the shooter, is he going to keep you from shooting him over and over while he runs away, runs to some cover nearby? I doubt it, and that sir is where you are in the scenario, your options [ everyone's options ] suck. If you can form a tactical plan from the above, lets hear it.

Now I'm the one who has put lead on the guys hand whose dropped the gun. Will he have time to look for cover before being shot repeatedly? No. Will he have time to move to cover while I'm putting lead on him? No. Will he be taking continued incoming, I'd think so. When I put myself in the BG's shoes and I've defanged your pistol where your hand is damaged, there's really nothing he can do to prevent me from putting multiples on him. I look at it like if that's not going to work for him, it's extremely unlikely it's going to work for me. YMMV, of course.
According to you it takes less than a second for him to fire 3 more rounds. It would take anyone including you longer than that to bend over and retrieve a dropped gun. So it looks like everyone including you would be dead according to your own scenario. If he’s close enough to me that I can step in and do whatever I can to prevent him from getting off more rounds I’m doing that instead of trying to pic something up.
Now you’re free to tell us how we are all in the 99.9% you mention but you’re not. Go ahead, explain how nobody else but you could survive.
 

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These are intended to be thought provoking scenarios and it stands to reason some likely have a very low probability of survival. Regardless they are not meant to be penis measurement contests, at least I choose to not take them that way. :unsure:
 

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These are intended to be thought provoking scenarios and it stands to reason some likely have a very low probability of survival. Regardless they are not meant to be penis measurement contests, at least I choose to not take tham that way. :unsure:
I don’t either. But inevitably they always turn into how 99.9% of us are wrong and Brownie is the only one who could survive.
In this one he’s created a situation where my only option would probably be to ask the bad guy to tell my wife and kids I love them before he finishes me. 😎
 

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Well "always" and "never" are likely neither accurate nor healthy mindsets in Defensive Scenarios. The "right" answer depends. . . :unsure:
 
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