[Steve48]

4" x 5"

You keep em in that type of group slow fire, then when you do 1-2 rounds a second, you'll keep them inside that 8" circle I look for. Smaller than 8", shooting too slow, bigger than 8", shooting too fast.

Let your mind work out the peripheral reference point slowly, once your mind see's you can hit without verifying the gun in direct vision, it will allow you to shoot faster.

Read my signature line, it's not the physical skills that will hold you back, it's the mental verification your brain wants to have and needs to let go of before you truly become one with the gun.

Brownie

Thanks, Brownie! This technique is terrific.

I finally made it back out to the range today, and followed your instructions. The key for me was to slow down to about 2 seconds per round, as you said. I also put a small white label at my estimated "peripheral vision aim point" (about 3 inches left and 3 inches down- I'm a lefty).

I fired 5 shot groups, slow fire. The first 10 were at 4 or 5 yards, and all went in about a 4 inch circle. The next 10 were at about 7 yards and also went in about a 4 inch circle.

Then I fired 30 rounds at 10 yards, slow fire. The spread went up more than I liked- to about 8 inches total. Out of 50 rounds all together, 49 were center of mass, and the paper bad guy took one in the arm.

Next time I'll work on tightening the groups. When I get the 10 yard groups in the 9 ring, I'll do what you said and increase the rate of fire until they spread back out to about where I was today at slow fire.

I really like this.

 

[brownie]

Steve48,

Sounds like you had some success with the skill this time around.

Now try this-----------

Two hand hold, Iso or mod iso stance, both eyes open with the gun between your nose and mouth in height, slide/barrel level/parallel to the ground.

In this position, look at the target [ place a dot on the target so you have an aiming point ] and you can "see" the end of the barrel in your peripheral vision. Place the end of the barrel 2-3" below where you want to hit and pull the trigger. Do this for 5 shots.

If the group is lower than where you wanted to hit, raise the reference between the end of the barrel and your intended hit point a little, reverse this procedure if you are hitting higher than your intended hit point.

Start at 4-5 yrds, stay at that range, fire till your groups are in that 4-5" pattern, then speed up your shots till they open up to 8" in group. Once you learn where the end of the barrel needs to be in your peripheral vision to hit your intended point, you can blast 2 rds per second pretty easily.

Stay at that distance and work on your shots per second keeping the shots in that 8" circle. Watch your grip, trigger control and try to get the groups reduced at the same speed. 10 yrds is counter productive until you can keep the groups into 4-5" at 5 yrds with speed, then you'll have enough practice with this to move out to 7, then 10 yrds.

You'll get there, shooting is one of the easiest things you'll ever do once you learn to use your natural ability.

Brownie

 

[Steve48]

Will do! Thanks.

 

[SXmas]

I'm sorry for bumping this older thread, but I have to say....

WOW!

I read this Saturday night all the way thru, youtubed it, pointed non stop at everything for the last two days and finally got to try it a little bit today at a range. Shot with far better accuracy and comfort, my pace improved, and just had a pleasurable shooting experience all the way around. I only understand maybe .00005% of what I read and saw, but then again I'm slow so I will have to practice (alot, yippee:ak:ak).

Mr. Brown, you are a wonder sir. Just as soon as I am able I hope to have the privilege of some of your instruction. Many sincere thanks.

 

[brownie]

I'm sorry for bumping this older thread, but I have to say....

WOW!

I read this Saturday night all the way thru, youtubed it, pointed non stop at everything for the last two days and finally got to try it a little bit today at a range. Shot with far better accuracy and comfort, my pace improved, and just had a pleasurable shooting experience all the way around. I only understand maybe .00005% of what I read and saw, but then again I'm slow so I will have to practice (alot, yippee:ak:ak).

Mr. Brown, you are a wonder sir. Just as soon as I am able I hope to have the privilege of some of your instruction. Many sincere thanks.

SXmas,

Glad to see you find value in the skill and saw immediate improvement using your natural ability to point in on things using your peripheral vision. It's not rocket science, but it is enlightening what you've always been capable of, just needed that door opened and to step through :thumsup

Your thoughts a very much appreciated

 

[Davidw]

I think we need to get a group of people here to commit and get Brownie down here for some personal instruction.

Count me in !!!

 

[Rvrctyrngr]

Sorry, David. Due to issues I can't reveal on an open forum, Mr. Brown is forbidden from traveling below the 28th parallel INCONUS.

 

[SXmas]

SXmas,

Glad to see you find value in the skill and saw immediate improvement using your natural ability to point in on things using your peripheral vision. It's not rocket science

Rocket science, nope! Effective as all get out, yup!

I was also pleasantly surprised that when I take my first (and only usually) DA shot it landed right on point of aim, that NEVER happened with my Beretta before today! My belly gun is DAO and that held a pretty neat groups as well, although just a little bigger. I blew thru some 300 rounds b4 I had to go and to say it was a blast is not just a pun, it's very fitting. :dancingbanana

The hard part today was the unlearning of previous methods and systems (yup I'm cross eyed dominant and 60-40 rightie leftie, not to mention my Dad taught me to shoot leftie when I was a kid). The fact that I have even heard of cross eye dominance should tell you that I'm putting way too much thought into this. This has to be the reason I'm so excited about this method. You really need to be natural and relaxed and then it's almost the same principle that guides you when you drag a computer mouse across your screen unerringly to an icon or throw a baseball, no sights on either of them! (note to mods, could we please get a smilie with a lightsaber here as this is some jedi : censored!

I wonder why it's so hard just to do sometimes instead of think and do? I don't have to remember anything really, just point and shoot. Works great righty and lefty or with both hands. It sounds kinda silly, but I guess two eyes on the target beats 1 eye on the gun sights! This seems to be a very practical solution to engaging multiple targets as they might not oblige and stand still and you may want to keep your head up and see what they are doing, the transition time between targets this way is much shorter for me as well.

Thanks again. Truly an instinctive PRACTICAL method of self defense. :drinks

Best Regards

 

[Davidw]

Brownie,

I am just discovered last week I am cross dominant and shoot with my right hand. So, while at the range I shot with my right hand and once with each eye closed. Did equally well with right and left eye. Maybe better with my left eye open (I have to test again)

Anyhow, when I point at something across the room and look at it, in my peripheral I see my finger with double vision as if I was cross eyed. Is this normal? If not can it be overcome?

Thanks

 

[brownie]

Brownie,

I am just discovered last week I am cross dominant and shoot with my right hand. So, while at the range I shot with my right hand and once with each eye closed. Did equally well with right and left eye. Maybe better with my left eye open (I have to test again)

Anyhow, when I point at something across the room and look at it, in my peripheral I see my finger with double vision as if I was cross eyed. Is this normal? If not can it be overcome?

Thanks

It's not uncommon for some to see double guns/fingers with both eyes open. Have someone try this with you to determine dominance. You make a circle with your index and thumb like the signal "a okay". Both eyes open, raise it at about 1 foot in front of you, now look through it and put it on their nose. Have them tell you which eye they see on you through the hole. That's your dominant eye.

Now point your finger, arm extended like you're shooting with both eyes open like at a light switch. Put the left ghost finger on the switch and close the eye they person DIDN'T see through the hole. Did the finger move off the switch? If it did, use the ghost right image when you shoot. If it didn't use the ghost left image to shoot when you see two barrels/slides with both eyes open.

Let me know how you make out with that, I can correct further if necessary.

 

[Davidw]

Brownie,

I did your test and 2 people said they saw my right eye.

Last week I did a test where you put your hands together in front of you as in the attached image. Then you look at something through the hole. Close one eye, then the other. Which ever eye allows the object not to move is your dominant eye. Using this test my left eye was dominant because the object didn't move.

When I use you other test of pointing at something with the left ghost finger and then close my left eye (the one they didn't see) my finger is on the light switch.

When I point at something with the right ghost finger and then close my right eye (the one they did see) my finger is on the light switch also.

Seems like there is a conflict here.

 

[brownie]

The test I gave you appears to indicate you are right eye dominant.
The test you performed seems to indicate left eye dominance.

There's another possibility in that you could be close to neutral and not have a master eye. Master eye is different that dominant eye which many do not understand.

You could be just slightly dominant in one eye but may be closer to neutral in eye dominance. Myself, I shoot right handed [ pistols ] and am just barely left eye dominant [ almost neutral myself ].

 

[Davidw]

So I guess I just try both ghost fingers and see which one I do better with.

Thanks

 

[brownie]

Both eyes open, gun centered between your eyes [ called the "nose index" ] and see which ghost slide/barrel shoots true for you, then just ignore the other one when shooting.

If you squint with one eye just a little, the ghosting sometimes goes away as well but you still have use of full peripheral vision.

 

[Mac45]

I am not commenting on the Quick kill technique, which is Brownie's area of specialization. Here is a lazy man's short cut to pistol point shooting. Use your trigger finger as a guide. Simply point at the target and, at 10' to 15', you'll probably hit it. Then, to continue putting all subsequent shots in the same general area, training is required to automatically reset your torso, shoulders, arms and wrists. It sounds complicated, but it isn't. A pitcher or quarterback does the same thing multiple times in a game. It merely requires practice. And, practice will make the pistol a part of your body. You'll find that you can point it nearly as accurately as you can your finger. As an added result, it makes it possible to effectively engage a short range target in near darkness. All through muscle memory. At short ranges, your eyes are for the acquisition and identification of targets, not aiming.

Not ot confuse anyone here, point shooting is similar to Quick Kill, but it is not the same. But systems stress not using the weapons sights when aiming. But, the PS systems use a mechanical indicator, the trigger finger to point the weapon. From my experience, PS is more comfortable for me than QK. That is probably due to the fact that I was initial trained in PS and spent a considerable amount of time practicing that method. It seems that QK may be easier, and quicker, for the novice to master. Once mastered, both systems greatly improve your chances of landing effective shots in short range, rapid fire responses.

 

[brownie]

From my experience, PS is more comfortable for me than QK. That is probably due to the fact that I was initial trained in PS and spent a considerable amount of time practicing that method

Exactly Mac. QK is extremely natural to use once you know how to use peripheral vision with the gun under line of sight. It's so good, in fact, that one can drill 1" groups with no sights on the gun from 15-18 feet.

Using the trigger finger as a guide works to demonstrate where the gun will point in but you can't use that trigger finger to do the pointing when firing, so it requires one to remember what the gun looked like in relationship to where the bullets went. With QK, the reference point used peripherally gets you there in just a few shots and there's nothing to spatially remember, it's just there from the first shot to last [ as long as you know how to manage recoil and keep the gun on threat which is a different skill to learn as you mentioned ]

If you're using the trigger finger to point the weapon, are you using the middle finger to fire the gun? That's not the best form of firing for recoil control nor is it necessary to use the gun that way, but it does work.

There are various forms of point shooting. Some make use of body and arm indexing like Fairbairn/Sykes 1/2 hip, 3/4 hip and point shoulder skills as well. Time and distance should dictate which skill is applied properly. Like the modern technique/front sight press skill, it's not the best skill for every situation. One should endeavor to make use of all of the point shooting/threat focused skills available to them through training. That way one is well versed in which skill to apply at any given time, to include front sight press or full sight picture of necessary, but again, it's all based on time/distance and the amount of accuracy one will need as to which skills should be applied properly.

No more than I'd use QK at 6 feet nor 12 feet, I'd not use F/S 1/2 hip [ elbow up/elbow down ] at 15-18 feet. Each threat focused skill has it's advantage and none should be used to exclusivity.

 

[Mac45]

From my experience, PS is more comfortable for me than QK. That is probably due to the fact that I was initial trained in PS and spent a considerable amount of time practicing that method

Exactly Mac. QK is extremely natural to use once you know how to use peripheral vision with the gun under line of sight. It's so good, in fact, that one can drill 1" groups with no sights on the gun from 15-18 feet.

Using the trigger finger as a guide works to demonstrate where the gun will point in but you can't use that trigger finger to do the pointing when firing, so it requires one to remember what the gun looked like in relationship to where the bullets went. With QK, the reference point used peripherally gets you there in just a few shots and there's nothing to spatially remember, it's just there from the first shot to last [ as long as you know how to manage recoil and keep the gun on threat which is a different skill to learn as you mentioned ]

If you're using the trigger finger to point the weapon, are you using the middle finger to fire the gun? That's not the best form of firing nor is it necessary to use the gun that way, but it does work.[/QUOTE]

You should only use the finger to point the weapon initially. Once your finger engages the trigger, it should not be removed until your assailant is down and the area is secured, you have exhausted your ammunition or you are dead. Actually, if I use a CAR High position, aiming is a combination of initial finger pointing and peripheral vision. But, because I have been able to train in delivery of rapid fire, I have developed the muscle memory to make it unnecessary to re-aim, even peripherally, during the close range course of fire. Most of the time, anyway. My weapon will settle back into nearly the same alignment because it feels "natural" now. As you pointed out, this is a separate skill set that has to be mastered and it has to be practiced occasionally to be maintained. And, in close range rapid fire the whole point is to get on target quickly and, once on target, stay there without re-aiming after every shot. The exception to this is if you have to deal with an armored subject or multiple assailants, where changing aim points is necessary.

I actually like the idea of teaching QK techniques to novice shooters. They seem to pick it up more quickly than P&S techniques and they gain confidence more quickly, as well. One situation where I feel that P&S is very useful is when you are using a pistol one-handed while in contact with your opponent. In this situation the firearm will be held very close to your body, at least initially, and may not be within the range of your peripheral vision. This is a specialized case, however.:thumsup

 

[XDMan]

Mods - I apologize for bumping a thread that was started nearly a year ago. However, it's just too good to lose sight of it (no pun intended). I am anxious to try this out during my next range visit. I'll try and post my results...keep in mind it will be my first time and with no instructor next to me. This should be required reading before members can join the forum.

 

[brownie]

For all the new members in the last 16 months, BTTT

 

[SEE IT LIKE A NATIVE]

I just bought a Umarex co2 pistol that is a dead ringer for a glock with the intent of practicing and learning Quick Kill ! Kevin